Over at Almost Frugal, Emily shares her story of bankruptcy. It’s an interesting read, but there are a few spots that gave me pause.
The short version of Emily’s short version:
She and her husband bought a franchise. Things were going well — car loans were paid off, they moved into a new house — until sales began to slip and a second franchise was purchased. Things fell apart thereafter, and the second store was closed after 15 months. They declared bankruptcy, and lots of things went to hell in a hand basket.
My initial analysis
Some of her personal strife I cannot imagine. Most notably, they lost a child: She was stillborn. That’s a tragedy regardless of surroundings, but amidst that much turmoil it’s industrial-sized salt (if such a thing existed) in an open wound.
So maybe I’ll sound like an utterly horrible person for pointing out the following. But so be it.
The Second Store
I’m assuming the decision to enter into a second store was not made lightly. Nonetheless, Emily specifically says that sales had already begun to slip when they decided to expand.
Knowing that the economy was rocky, this may not have been the wisest route. I don’t know the story behind that big step, nor do I know how Emily views the decision in hindsight. She doesn’t get into it.
So I could be reading into things, but the tone I inferred was one of nonchalance about what proved to be a financially fatal misstep. The summary skips from a bad economic climate, with corresponding slips in profits, to the decision to (rather obviously) overextend their resources.
Emily then goes on to detail how, at the worst point, they stopped drawing any money from the business at all. If they had, they wouldn’t have been able to pay their employees. I can only imagine the frustration of working “gratis,” as she put it. Still, there seemed to be a rather large pang of self-pity there, and it’s my understanding that most small business owners go through a period (or several) of making no money at all. When they’re not actively losing it.
Of course, Emily was coming off a financial high of making good profits, so this must have been an especially disappointing turn of events. Still, isn’t this a risk that she entered into, eyes wide open, when she and her husband bought the franchise?
Again, maybe I’m reading into it. But this next part, I know I’m not.
Bankruptcy
“I’m very grateful we had nothing of worth, the bankruptcy trustee had nothing to confiscate and sell.”
Yes, thank goodness those creditors won’t get more things to help make up for the losses they’re taking on your debts. Nothing but gratitude that those vultures — they want you to pay back what you spent! — don’t get your stuff to make up for taking a chance on you and losing. Suck on that, people who expected you to live up to your responsibilities!
“I do have regrets, too. We never lived an expensive lifestyle, with exception of the new house. Both of our cars are 10 years old. Our only vacation these last few years was Las Vegas for a Domino’s Rally… Sometimes I wish we would have taken a beach vacation or something.”
Indeed, it is a shame that you weren’t irresponsible and charged up more debt that you couldn’t (and won’t) pay off. You could have really stuck it to those creditors. You could have indulged yourself. After all, it isn’t like you’ll have to pay it back now.
“[Bankruptcy is] demeaning. You feel like the lowest of the low. The courts made us take this finance class which I could have taught, where we were patronized because of our lack of financial knowledge.”
I can understand frustration at being taught basic financial facts that you feel you already know. And yet… You bought a second store when the first one began to struggle. So perhaps you shouldn’t be so quick to dismiss the financial lessons contained in these sessions?
Perhaps you weren’t being “patronized,” but instead were given the opportunity to look into your situation and see any assumptions or miscalculations of finances that got you into this mess?
And even if all the classes taught was “Debt is bad. Live within your means.” maybe, just maybe, your miscalculations — whether of judgment, finance or simply underestimating risk — mean that they should assume you need teaching from the ground up.
Emily, you begged for a lifesaver because you were drowning in debt. I don’t think you should be allowed to sneer at what they give you.
Post bankruptcy
Perhaps I’m most disappointed by her (lack of) description of bankruptcy.
I know the focus of the piece is on the new chapter of her life, but she misses a chance to actually explain the process or the trials and tribulations that you experience. Her summation?
“A few thoughts about bankruptcy. It’s expensive. It’s complicated. It’s demeaning.”
She utterly fails to bring home the brutal reality of bankruptcy. The fact that it’ll haunt you. The fact that everything will be harder to get now. Nothing about any harrowing experiences from the process.
It’s just another case of people being overly glib about bankruptcy. Every missed opportunity like this simply reinforces the poor education about the process. There are rarely tales of caution about this kind of thing, just a (relatively) happy ending of how they’ve survived and are looking forward to building a new life.
I understand the need for a positive outlook. But aren’t we just telling people that bankruptcy is just like “Home” in the game of tag? You touch it, and you’re safe. Being chased? Feeling cornered? Just run to that spot, and no one can get to you.
Yeah, there are inconveniences. You attend some embarrassingly basic classes that you get to jeer about later. But after that, it’s over. The bankruptcy is discharged. In Emily’s own words,
“Post-bankruptcy, your slate is clean…Your life and finances become your own again.”
(To be fair, she goes on to discuss the responsibility that comes with that.)
But her opinions on life after bankruptcy seem even more glib than her opinions about the process itself.
“It’s a relief to be able to pick up the phone again without fear of harassment.”
Those phone calls? They are people who want the money you promised them. The money they gave to you to spend. Yes, debt collectors can be a horrid, abusive bunch. But to portray companies’ attempts to get what they are due as “harassment” is to get carried away with hyperbole.
Summing it all up
So that’s my “Starting Over” story. We’re still standing strong, somehow our marriage is surviving… We’ve learned some hard lessons… We’ve gained humility and compassion.
I’m glad that she feels they’ve gained from this. But I would really like to see some examples of that humility she talks, because I see none of it in this piece.
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{ 10 comments… read them below or add one }
LOL! I knew someone would crucify me for that post, kicking myself for not guessing it would be you.
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Abigail Reply:
March 30th, 2010 at 2:46 pm
Well, thanks for taking this post in stride. I honestly wasn't expecting such an even-handed reaction!
And I was serious about how useful and interesting it would be to hear more about the bankruptcy process itself.
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Emily Reply:
March 30th, 2010 at 4:09 pm
It was my fault, I kind of threw that post out there without much doctoring. Look for my responses next Monday on Almost Frugal.
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Abigail Reply:
March 30th, 2010 at 11:07 am
You heard it here, folks! I, for one, look forward to more details. They usually clear a lot of things up.
Interesting, on several levels. I'll have to split this into more than one comment, due to the restriction on comment length I've mentioned before.
First, regarding the trackbacks, Emily's link to the rebuttal piece isn't working and the rebuttal article doesn't appear when I go to the Almost Frugal home page, although I can see the original piece. And, Abby, did you check out the Some People Just Don't Get It trackback? Talk about filleting someone (in this case, you)! I really don't think the author can have read your blog, even casually, given some of the vitriol that was heaped on you. Not that I think you would have been cut any slack, just that the comments about you would have taken a totally different tack if the author was even minimally aware of your own situation.
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Abigail Reply:
April 1st, 2010 at 2:42 pm
Yeah, I left a comment over there — though given my own take on Emily, I don't think I can ask for too much consideration in the vitriol department!
And apparently the rebuttal was published too early, then yanked. Look for it next week. I'm going to take down the link here in a moment.
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Abigail Reply:
April 1st, 2010 at 2:42 pm
Yeah, I left a comment over there — though given my own take on Emily, I don't think I can ask for too much consideration in the vitriol department!
And apparently the rebuttal was published too early, then yanked. Look for it next week. I'm going to take down the link here in a moment.
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Comment Part 2
As for the story itself, it's sad, but opening a second store when sales at the first were declining strikes me as a *very* bad move and extremely shortsighted. While you were very tough with Emily I think most of your observations made sense.
I agree that there seemed to be a clear lack of humility in saying things like "I'm…grateful…the bankruptcy trustee had nothing to confiscate and sell" or in wishing that they'd spent more money frivolously prior to the bankruptcy.
One place where I disagree with your comments, Abby, has to do with the debt collectors, who are total vultures and harass people all the time. Yes, that's their job, and they're callous in part because they've heard every sob story under the sun (some of which were total fiction) but their methods are often illegal and almost always disgusting. I totally understand Emily's relief at not having to dread answering the phone these days.
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Abigail Reply:
April 1st, 2010 at 2:43 pm
Yeah, this seems to be the general consensus. Tim and I had a long discussion about it last night. And I have to say that he did sway me toward his side.
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Part 3! Overall, I'm reminded of my hubby's name for Howie Mandell's game show "Deal or No Deal". He calls it "Greed or No Greed" because the greed usually kicks in at some point and leads the contestants to continue long after they should have accepted a decent offer. Emily and her husband should never have opened the 2nd location and should have closed it faster, when they saw how they were struggling. Yes, having to work without a salary is a tough break, but it's what every entrepeneur should bank on having to do for 6 to 12 months. If you can't afford that, you can't afford to open (at least not now or not without your spouse having a job that pays all your regular household bills).
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Part 4! And the biggest thing about declaring bankruptcy is that you have to realize you are stiffing the people you owe and you should feel badly about that (rather than wishing you were taking them for even more). Bankruptcy can have a cascading effect. You go bankrupt, so your supplier doesn't get paid. Now he can't pay all his suppliers, so he goes bankrupt or without a salary or whatever. And so on.
Personally, I like to read Bouncing Betty over at Bouncing Back From Bankruptcy for a level-headed approach to life post-bankruptcy.
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Abigail Reply:
April 1st, 2010 at 2:44 pm
I recently noticed this blog and I think I'm going to subscribe. Now that you suggest it, that pretty much clinches it.
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Here’s our story. Married for almost 38 years. No credit card debt of any kind. Put ourselves and 4 kids through college with no debt. (2 Ivy Leagues and Notre Dame included) Survived breast cancer and lots of medical bills paid off. Moved to California to work in family business. Business takes a terrible hit during bad economy. Husband unemployed. Applies to hundreds of jobs and no offer. It’s tough for the young today but tougher when you are older. Drain savings trying to survive for almost 3 years. Unemployment and my low paying job cannot meet bills. Start to use credit card for mortgage in the hope that by some miracle we can sell and recoup our equity. Cannot give house away in smaller northern CA city with horrendous housing market. Default on loan and go into foreclosure. We lose $250,000 in equity. House sells at auction for less than half of what we bought it for. (To add salt to the wound, our REALTOR of 2 years bought it, knowing our unemployment situation. Talk about an unethical vulture.) Bank does not lose any money on us. Loan paid in full when house sells.
So there we sat with a boatload of CC debt and no way to start over at our age. We declared bankruptcy. I wouldn’t be so judgmental if I were you. Hindsight is 100%. Let’s see how you would survive if faced with months of unemployment. You don’t think it can happen, but it does. Bad things happen to responsible people too.
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Abigail Reply:
April 6th, 2010 at 4:51 am
TM,
Thank you for your reply.
Actually, I am well-versed in the issues of illness. My husband and I both have chronic health problems — mine is a disability that came on at age 19. So I am all too aware of just how easily everything crumbles away.
However, I think you missed my point. I don't take issue with the fact that she declared bankruptcy. I take issue with the flippant attitude she conveyed throughout the post.
I understand that they took a gamble and lost. It wasn't the smartest gamble, arguably, but that has also been the start of some amazing business empires. So I can kind of understand the choices they made.
That's not my problem.
My problem is with the tone she used as she conveyed the story. I think I cover it pretty thoroughly in my post so I won't repeat myself. Pretty much every point in this post isn't about the choices she made, but the attitude she has when she goes over the whole ordeal.
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I guess I took her article a bit differently. I didn't read her attitude as flip.
Like on the financial classes – I read it as they need to have more meat to them. To actually teach people "OK, when you notice X, Y or Z occurring you need to stop, think and get back on track – not throw more money at the problem."
People in BK usually don't need to be taught to balance a check book (although I know some do) – they need help to recognize what it looks like when they are headed for catastrophe and how to head it off. They need to learn how to better plan for emergencies – ideas on how to build up an emergency fund.
I did a BK a few years after I left my son's Dad – he not only spent every cent I earned and inherited but also ran up most of my CC and other things. For 5 yrs I was in extreme poverty & untouchable by collections – although they threatened to take my car, report my irresponsibility to my landlord to get me evicted (an thus free up my rent money to pay them) and search my house for sell-able goods. I got a low paying yet decent job (climbing up the career ladder). I stayed in my poverty budget and with the extra money started doing the Dave Ramsey thing and a collector noticed I was "kicking one sleeping dog at a time" or paying off one old debt at a time and this collector decided to take me to court & try to garnish my wages after putting over 5 thousand dollars in fees on the 560 hospital debt they had acquired. They wouldn't negotiate with my atty, etc.
I was young/ignorant enough I didn't understand the depth of or what I was doing. However, I also knew I couldn't have my paycheck garnished and be homeless (it would have left me with 500 a month to live on & I have a kid who needed full time childcare so I could work). If it was only the hospital fee and maybe a couple hundred in late charges then it would have been different & it woulda been paid in full.
Sometimes things happen so fast you don't realize what your doing could back fire & I think that might be what happened with her second store opening.
Hindsight is always 20/20 and I'm sure she'll be more responsible in the future. While yes, I'm sure it really hurt her vendors in a down economy , I know the ramifications will be such that not only could it hurt her more but she'll be more careful in the future.
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Abigail Reply:
April 6th, 2010 at 4:01 pm
Thank you for sharing your story and your take on the post. I'm still not sure I agree, but it's good to get perspective from people who have been in the trenches.
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Your post seems very judgemental and harsh. Who really are you to police the level of shamefullness someone should feel. I applaud her for being able to share her story and disagree that she should have her head still hanging low….it's called bounce back. Would you prefer she cower in a corner with a razor blade to her wrist? Just as she took "a risk" when she opened the 2nd business, her lenders took a risk as well…that is why they charge interest isn't it?
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Maybe you should shake a finger at them for loaning the money in light of decreased sales on the first business. They didn't do their due diligence and they suffered for it. The bank calculated their risk and lost just as Emily and her husband did. It's amazing how much shame we try to attach to individuals filing bankruptcy but we don't do the same for companies that default on loans or knowing make bad loans. Bankruptcy is a tough situation for anyone to go through and the ramifications are resounding. No one does so lightly or without a feeling of utter failure, disappointment, and guilt. So, I don't think she needs you picking her emotions apart and dictating how loathsome she should feel. Things happen and people make bad decisions. I really think you should get off your high horse and live amongst the real people. Shame on you…now take pause with that!
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Abigail Reply:
April 18th, 2010 at 2:23 pm
Getreal,
I think the banks should absolutely be held accountable for the stupid risks they took. It makes me furious when companies are able to bow out of their responsibilities.
I wasn't saying she needs to feel shame. I was taking issue with the fact that she didn't seem to treat the bankruptcy as anything more than an inconvenience. As though they were inflicted on her as some vast universal injustice rather than as a natural consequence of taking a risk and losing.
I continue to be dumbfounded at how lightly people take issues such as bankruptcy in this country. The way she presented her situation, she sounded like one of them.
She has since explained more, and she and I exchanged some emails about the article. I have a much clearer sense now of how she actually felt. But, at the time, all I had to base my opinion on was a very flippant article that seemed riddled with victimhood rather than "I took a risk and here is the fallout. it was awful and soul-wrenching, and in the middle of it, I caught myself thinking ridiculous (if understandable) thoughts such as, 'If all this were going to happen anyway, why *didn't* we enjoy ourselves more? Take that beach vacation?'" No, instead she made it sound as though she thought she really had considered it a lost opportunity — to be so responsible rather than really living it up.
When you put something out there — even just on a blog — you open yourself up. This was a reaction on my part to the story as she told it. Had she told it a different way — more in depth or simply edited more with an eye toward how flippant it might sound — I would have reacted differently. I have, in fact, since she has explained more, filled in some gaps, etc.
Finally, I am not here to "police" the level of shame someone should feel. But I do have every right to my opinion and to express it– just as others have expressed that they were touched by her story, or that they read it completely differently. (And their comments have let me see the story in a slightly different slant.)
You tell me that I should not police her level of shame, but that I should feel shame myself. It's an excellent example that we all can't help but judge. Sometimes, with more reflection, we find new depths or new perspectives. Nonetheless, we all have knee-jerk reactions to things. It's the nature of being human.
I do wish now that I had tempered my own piece a bit. And, because I put it up without a night's reflection to consider it and let it seep in (as I try to do normally), it was overly harsh in expressing its opinion. I acknowledge that it could have been done more demurely and slightly more tactfully. But at that moment I felt only outrage at her presented attitude.
So I wrote and I didn't give time to properly edit. Which opens me up to criticism as well. And I accept that the piece could have been better and less harsh — because I didn't edit it enough. And so she and I are, to a certain extent, in the same boat. How's *that* for irony?
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I'm just now getting around to reading this, and though I do agree with you on many points, I think you can't understand being "harassed" night and day by creditors until you go through it. It's true that I owed them money when I was harassed, and they had every right to try to collect that money. But creditors completely disregard regulations meant to protect consumers. I'd receive phone calls beginning at 6 a.m. and lasting well into the night. It got to the point that I was terrified to even hear my phone vibrate. I'd turn the sound off during the day just to avoid that awful feeling of being rudely accosted by people who didn't know who I was or why I borrowed money or what my life was like. If I had never lived through that, I'd probably be like you, judgmental about people who can't pay their debts. But having gone through it, I'll just nod my head.
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