I know there are conscientious objectors to places owned by Sam Walton. I respect their commitment, but I have a membership to Sam’s Club.
I’m really not sure if that whole Nike/child-sweat-shop-labor thing was ever cleared up. Then again, I’m not all that impressed by the brand, so I don’t buy that stuff anyway.
Anyone who cares about animals is probably staunchly against Procter & Gamble, since it’s notorious for testing on animals. (I had a vegan friend go on at great length about the evils of the company.) Personally, I use the coupons if they come in handy.
In other words, I’m kind of ambivalent about ethical spending. But I have friends who are pretty determined to make a difference. My friend Rachel is a vegetarian because she doesn’t want to harm animals. She also doesn’t shop at Sam’s Club/WalMart because she doesn’t want to support their policies. (She, at least, considers this a personal choice and doesn’t expect anyone to jump on her bandwagon.)
On the other hand, you could argue that she can afford to have ethics. Her job doesn’t pay spectacularly, but for several years she had a roommate. They each paid only $400 plus utilities, so she was able to build her savings.
It makes me wonder if she’d keep up the objections if she were in a worse financial situation. Would she have gone with me Sam’s Club? Or would she just find more frugal ways to live so that she could still be true to her ethics?
And if she hadn’t grown up comfortably middle class, would she even have this set of ethics? Her family members aren’t vegetarians, so clearly some of her moral beliefs were formed outside of her parents’ code of conduct.
My guess is that you’re less likely to object to specific brands (at least, on questions other than taste/quality) if you grew up in a lower-income household. Parents who are just making ends meet probably aren’t going to quibble about a company’s morality. They just want a good deal.
Then again, things may change when you’re an adult. If you are more financially comfortable, you may read the newspaper and learn about corporations’ questionable policies. That may spur you on to action. You may decide to pay a little more for a brand that doesn’t exploit children/animals/workers abroad. And I’m sure there are some parents who, despite tenuous finances, still felt it was important to register moral outrage.
Despite being raised in a middle-class household, I can’t remember ethics entering into my mom’s purchases. This might be because groceries in Alaska are considerably more expensive.
Or maybe it’s a reflection of my mom’s own upbringing. She never had to do without, but she understood from an early age that there was just enough of everything.
What about you guys? Did your parents raise you to care about how companies maintained low prices? Do you “vote with your dollars” now, or do you just go for the best deal? Would you change if your income changed (up or down) significantly?
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Yes, absolutely. We can afford to have ethics even when in debt or in worse situations. Thankfully, many people still do and that's why they clip coupons instead of stealing from others. When you lose your ethics, that's when you become "cheap" and even criminal.
However, that doesn't mean that we can all make the same choices — and I certainly don't expect everyone to. Being ethical doesn't mean only buying fair-trade organic vegan shoes. The fact is, NONE of us can do everything and there are few perfect choices in life. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't do what we can when we can. And those who can should work towards extending good choices to others, not just sitting back and judging them, indulging in their own perceived moral superiority.
Fortunately, there are things that most of us can do that are more ethical AND cheaper. For example, not buying something at all is much better for the environment in most cases than buying the expensive "eco-friendly" version. And if you have to buy something (as opposed to doing without or borrowing or Freecycling), buying used is the next best thing. Doing those two things also helps cut down on animal — and human — exploitation.
I know not everyone is as lucky as I am to live where I do and have reliable transportation to the farmers' market and to a grocery store that has bulk bins. However, for those that are and have the energy to cook, taking advantage of those two things can be VERY helpful as they're often sources of cheaper, healthier, more environmentally friendly, even tastier food — even vegan food in my case. So, yes, I'm going to promote those things.
But that doesn't mean that I expect everyone to do as I do (and I know I'm far from perfect). We must each find out for ourselves what we're capable of. But the important thing is that we keep trying to be better people, no matter what our situations, not just for others but for own dignity and self-respect that come from knowing that we are not defined by the choices we have but the choices we make.
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Abigail Reply:
March 22nd, 2010 at 5:24 pm
I tend to agree. While people living frugally may not be able to afford everything their conscience tells them, I think there are a lot of little steps. I like the idea of just not buying things at all, rather than buying "eco-friendly" products. For example, I now use vinegar as my main cleaning/disinfecting tool. It's cheap and it's not full of chemicals. Though I love my scrubbing bubbles to make easy work of a tub.
I think there could be a lot of ways to substitute one company's goods for another, if you have a moral objection. It's mostly about the amount of work you're willing to put in for your convictions.
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Meg Reply:
March 23rd, 2010 at 8:28 pm
I <3 vinegar — and baking soda, too. Baking soda pretty consistently works better than the fancy cleaners we've tried.
You know, I've found a lot of the frugal/green things I do made it much easier to switch to being vegan. I don't have to think much about, "OMG! What's in my cleaner that might be an animal product!" because most of the time I'm not using commercially mixed cleaners. And I think I would have driven myself nuts if I went vegan back when I was eating hardly anything but t.v. dinners (yeah….took my husband and I both a while to figure out this whole "cooking" thing, lol).
It's nice to be at a point where many of the choices we make are better on so many counts (i.e. more frugal, green, ethical, healthy, taste, etc.). But, I do realize that not everyone has the same choices. I know some people don't get much choice over their food because they rely on others for it. I know some people don't have transportation to a good grocery store and have to make do with what is at the corner store. And other people just don't know their choices because these things take time to learn about and not everyone has the time, energy, know how, or even access to the information. I guess feeling as privileged as I do, I feel more responsibility to make the most of my choices for the better — not a bad thing, though.
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Meg Reply:
March 23rd, 2010 at 8:28 pm
I <3 vinegar — and baking soda, too. Baking soda pretty consistently works better than the fancy cleaners we've tried.
You know, I've found a lot of the frugal/green things I do made it much easier to switch to being vegan. I don't have to think much about, "OMG! What's in my cleaner that might be an animal product!" because most of the time I'm not using commercially mixed cleaners. And I think I would have driven myself nuts if I went vegan back when I was eating hardly anything but t.v. dinners (yeah….took my husband and I both a while to figure out this whole "cooking" thing, lol).
It's nice to be at a point where many of the choices we make are better on so many counts (i.e. more frugal, green, ethical, healthy, taste, etc.). But, I do realize that not everyone has the same choices. I know some people don't get much choice over their food because they rely on others for it. I know some people don't have transportation to a good grocery store and have to make do with what is at the corner store. And other people just don't know their choices because these things take time to learn about and not everyone has the time, energy, know how, or even access to the information. I guess feeling as privileged as I do, I feel more responsibility to make the most of my choices for the better — not a bad thing, though.
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Abigail Reply:
March 22nd, 2010 at 5:24 pm
I tend to agree. While people living frugally may not be able to afford everything their conscience tells them, I think there are a lot of little steps. I like the idea of just not buying things at all, rather than buying "eco-friendly" products. For example, I now use vinegar as my main cleaning/disinfecting tool. It's cheap and it's not full of chemicals. Though I love my scrubbing bubbles to make easy work of a tub.
I think there could be a lot of ways to substitute one company's goods for another, if you have a moral objection. It's mostly about the amount of work you're willing to put in for your convictions.
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I respect other people’s decisions regarding whatever issue is important to them as long as they don’t try to shove it down my throat. “Doing the right thing” is subjective.
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Here's the thing, and it's hard to admit…. We're not making a change in the world by choosing to not eat meat or by choosing to boycott Walmart. It makes us feel better. We can sleep at night because we think, "Oh, I don't support that, and I'm making that decision known by not buying it." But are they going to save an animal or let a child go home because you didn't buy their product? No.
Not everyone has the time to get involved in a big way, but I think the key to making change happen is to participate in organizations that oppose the things you oppose, to write letters to your congressmen, to spread the message to your neighbors to see if maybe they'd also like to sign and send a letter to Washington.
Like you, I'm not a Nike wearer. But I do buy animal products, even though I'm totally against slaughter houses. (I'm in the process of *maybe* going veg, but it'll be a long, hard process before I make it.) My parents had morals and opposed the practices of big companies like Walmart, but they recognized that their boycotting would not make a dent in Walmart's profits. And cheaper prices were a bigger motivator than becoming a full-time activist. I grew up in a middle class family.
The only thing I ask of people is that they know what they're buying. Don't stick your head in the sand and pretend something isn't going on because you want to feel good about your purchases. If you know what's going on and still buy it, I don't care. That's your decision. Just know what you're doing when you buy, when you think nothing you can do will help. I try to talk to my family about slaughter houses, not because I think they'll stop eating meat (We're all big meat eaters.) but because they should know what they're standing by when they argue with me that "animal were put here for our food."
Phew! Off my soap box now… lol
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Meg Reply:
March 23rd, 2010 at 8:18 pm
With every choice we make we DO make a difference, whether good, bad, or more likely mixed but still usually one way more than another. Even choosing to carry on as "normal" is a choice and it has consequences and yeah, makes a difference. It might be a small difference, but then we make a lot of choices over our lifetimes and also our decisions influence others.
So, as someone who believes that intentionally harming animals for pleasure is wrong (which would be the case if I, given my own choices available, decided to eat animals), I don't feel like I get a free pass just because 99.9% of people are doing it. I don't expect the industry to go away in my lifetime, but that doesn't change the fact that I believe it's wrong, so I couldn't feel good about myself supporting the use of those animals with all those horrible things that come with that.
Now, I'm not saying you're a bad person and I'm not even saying this to convince you to go vegan. But I think the attitude that "we're not making a change in the world" is just wrong. Of course you're making a change! ALL of your actions have consequences!
And yes, animals are saved when people stop eating meat. It might not seem so as distant as we are from the killing of the animals — and maybe that's one reason we can get away with not taking responsibility for our actions — but that doesn't mean that people's choices don't have an effect. Due to various reasons (but especially less public consumption overall), 2009 was a very bad year for meat, milk, and egg producers (at least in the U.S.). The industry has admitted as much. It's been enough to put some out of business, but even those that stay in business may have to scale back and diversify if this keeps up. That means fewer animals suffering. That is a real change as the result of a lot of people making choices as individuals. And, yes, it's a change that I'm proud to be a part of. I'm thrilled to see more and more vegan-friendly products taking over the shelves at my local grocery store, taking the place of animal products. That is real change that I can see personally and I'm happy to support.
So don't tell me that I don't make a difference — or think that you don't.
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Meg Reply:
March 23rd, 2010 at 8:18 pm
With every choice we make we DO make a difference, whether good, bad, or more likely mixed but still usually one way more than another. Even choosing to carry on as "normal" is a choice and it has consequences and yeah, makes a difference. It might be a small difference, but then we make a lot of choices over our lifetimes and also our decisions influence others.
So, as someone who believes that intentionally harming animals for pleasure is wrong (which would be the case if I, given my own choices available, decided to eat animals), I don't feel like I get a free pass just because 99.9% of people are doing it. I don't expect the industry to go away in my lifetime, but that doesn't change the fact that I believe it's wrong, so I couldn't feel good about myself supporting the use of those animals with all those horrible things that come with that.
Now, I'm not saying you're a bad person and I'm not even saying this to convince you to go vegan. But I think the attitude that "we're not making a change in the world" is just wrong. Of course you're making a change! ALL of your actions have consequences!
And yes, animals are saved when people stop eating meat. It might not seem so as distant as we are from the killing of the animals — and maybe that's one reason we can get away with not taking responsibility for our actions — but that doesn't mean that people's choices don't have an effect. Due to various reasons (but especially less public consumption overall), 2009 was a very bad year for meat, milk, and egg producers (at least in the U.S.). The industry has admitted as much. It's been enough to put some out of business, but even those that stay in business may have to scale back and diversify if this keeps up. That means fewer animals suffering. That is a real change as the result of a lot of people making choices as individuals. And, yes, it's a change that I'm proud to be a part of. I'm thrilled to see more and more vegan-friendly products taking over the shelves at my local grocery store, taking the place of animal products. That is real change that I can see personally and I'm happy to support.
So don't tell me that I don't make a difference — or think that you don't.
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For me, the line is religious. Since I keep strictly kosher anything I buy (other than eggs in the shell or fresh fruit and vegetables that haven't been cut up) has to have an acceptable kosher supervision. Some things aren't a problem. Safeway milk (where I live, at least, and to the level that I keep) is kosher. That is, it's supervised from the point where it comes into the facility where it's processed. Most breakfast cereals are kosher. So are a lot of products by major manufacturers ranging from instant coffee to mayonnaise to tuna to dish soap. (No, I don't eat dish soap but I wash the dishes I eat off of with it so it has to be kosher too.) All these items are readily available, for the same price anybody else pays. It does stop me from using some brands or generics that may be cheaper, however. Bulk bins are also not a possibility because I can't be sure the product even started out kosher without the original packaging and the bin may have been contaminated by non-kosher food (for instance, from a scoop that was also used for a non-kosher product) even if it was okay in the first place. (Part 2 of my comment follows)
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(Part 2 of my comment. PS Why do some long comments appear but mine won't post unless they're split up to make them shorter?)
Then there are the foods that are usually only kosher when produced by Jewish companies such as cheese (because it can't contain animal derived rennet) or meat, which has to come from a healthy animal and be slaughtered in a very particular manner by a religiously observant Jew. These things cost a *lot* more to buy kosher and I have 2 choices. I can eat less of them or I can suck it up and pay the amount it costs. I buy cheese regularly even though it averages out to around $18/lb because I can get usually get 2 meals for us out of $9 worth of cheese (plus other ingredients, of course). We eat meat once a week or less. When a roast costs $80 or more it just isn't happening, at least not more than once or twice a year for holidays.
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Abigail Reply:
March 23rd, 2010 at 5:58 pm
Shevy,
I honestly don't know why it's splitting up your comments — sorry about that!
Thank you for reminding us the cost of religious observation, because those are pretty non-negotiable ("Sorry, honey, we just don't have the money to celebrate G-d in our lives.") and pretty steep. I am really impressed that you manage to make it work with those kinds of costs.
It also makes me wonder how one of my ex-boyfriend's family made it work. They raised something like 6 kids on probably less than $70,000 a year and kept kosher.
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Abigail Reply:
March 23rd, 2010 at 5:58 pm
Shevy,
I honestly don't know why it's splitting up your comments — sorry about that!
Thank you for reminding us the cost of religious observation, because those are pretty non-negotiable ("Sorry, honey, we just don't have the money to celebrate G-d in our lives.") and pretty steep. I am really impressed that you manage to make it work with those kinds of costs.
It also makes me wonder how one of my ex-boyfriend's family made it work. They raised something like 6 kids on probably less than $70,000 a year and kept kosher.
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I have never thought about ethics in purchasing from the company when I am in debt. Whether I have debt or not I will still shop at Walmart because I like paying less for the same item.
I do not think it is worth the effort for me to go researching every company I shop from to see if they have run sweat shops etc in the past. So yes Walmart and Proctor and Gamble continue to get my money.
Now on the other hand if there was a company called WeRunSweatshops I would not buy from it….so I guess it goes both ways.
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I am one of the objectors to Wally World and its minions. I believe that if you are willing to comprise your beliefs because your circumstances are reduced then they aren't true core beliefs.
A belief cannot be dictated or changed to fit the situation. Whether that is with purchasing from Wal-Mart or a stance against chemicals and animal testing.
“Never give in, never give in, never; never; never; never – in nothing, great or small, large or petty – never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense” — Winston Churchill
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LOL! When my mother was living, there was no such thing as ethics in shopping, except insofar as one usually tried to buy American. That wasn't difficult, because most products in U.S. markets were made in America. You bought what was available to you, where it was available, usually from neighborhood grocery stores or from regional chains that would be dwarfed–nay, microscopic!–by comparison with today's supermarket chains, to say nothing of a Walmart.
I don't shop at Walmart, because I don't care for the way it bullies its suppliers or the effect it has on local businesses. As for the way it treats its employees…that I'm not so sure about. When a friend's mother who worked at Walmart died, her memorial ceremony was packed with people from the store, AND her boss gave a beautiful and moving talk. One thing's for certain: if I had croaked over while I was still working at the Great Desert University, not a soul from that place would've shown up at my funeral!
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I think this issue is a matter of priorities. By the sounds of it, Rachel put herself into a situation that allows her to be ethical. Others are not as conscientious about certain issues or care about them about them as much.
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When a mother must choose whether to feed her child or protest WM and let her child's hungry stomach growl, who would begrudge her efforts to feed her child? No, not everyone has a choice.
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