Back in October, Tim’s mom was hospitalized for COPD. (At least it got her to quit smoking!) She was then diagnosed with H1N1 and kept in the hospital for four days.
Well, the bill finally arrived. The $4,800 bill. That’s after a 70 percent discount from the financial aid office.
Part of the problem is that the hospital was basing its decision on the previous year’s tax returns. That was back when Tim’s dad was still working. The other part of the problem is that you can only get 70 percent or 100 percent coverage. There are no options in between.
Nadine called up the office to arrange payments. She’s on disability, so she warned them that payments would be small. They warned her that she only has two years to pay off the entire amount. Then it goes to collections.
I asked her if she could show the new income levels she’s working with — under $2,500 a month for three grownups — but she said it wouldn’t matter. She gave me an explanation, but it sort of went over my head. Point is, the hospital won’t change its mind.
For me, this would be a pretty big dilemma. I’d feel obligated to take care of my debt, but I’d also hate paying a creditor who will send me to collections no matter what. I would probably consider protesting by not paying. More than likely, though, my conscience would win out, and I’d send in what I could.
Nadine didn’t wrestle with these issues as much as I would. She’s decided to keep her money. Her credit is already trashed, thanks to a woman in the area who shares her name. And collections can’t do much to her: All property is in her husband’s name, and disability checks can’t be garnished.
Also, she’s pretty tired of the repercussions of stupid Medicare rules. Namely, that you can’t get coverage until two years after the date of your Social Security disability application, even when you’re approved immediately. Private insurance wasn’t an option either. Only the state’s high-risk pool would take her. Even then, premiums were nearly $700 a month with a $3,000 deductible. Her disability check is $1,100 a month.
I agree with her logic, but the whole situation makes me uncomfortable. Based on her circumstances, though, it’s probably the smartest financial move.
What do you think of her decision?
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{ 12 comments… read them below or add one }
I think it's pretty awful that the hospital is not more accommodating when it comes to the length of time that you could pay it off. That sucks that it would go to collections no matter what. That being said, I still think I would at least send a token amount. As ridiculous as it everything may be, the fact is that it still cost money for her care, and I would morally feel very bad if I didn't pay a penny of that back. I wouldn't advocate going to the point where paying would cause undue hardship, but refusing to pay anything is not right either.
One of my most frequent sayings is that two wrongs don't make a right. The hospital is definitely wrong in their policy but to add a second wrong by not paying anything would not make anything at all right.
Besides, who knows, the problem may become so common that by two years time, the hospital may have re-thought their policy and it may never go to collections.
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Abigail Reply:
March 4th, 2010 at 9:39 pm
I agree with you. I'd have to at least TRY to pay something. I'd just feel weird about it.
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Abigail Reply:
March 4th, 2010 at 9:39 pm
I agree with you. I'd have to at least TRY to pay something. I'd just feel weird about it.
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I would consider paying only $10-$20 each month just to show that I am trying in good faith to pay my bill off. The threat of a two year payoff is laughable because is the bill collector going to put her in jail where she would receive free food, medical, etc.? Not much of a threat or incentive to pay off my bill in the alloted two years in my opinion.
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Abigail Reply:
March 4th, 2010 at 9:40 pm
Bill collectors don't move to put you in jail. If you earn a paycheck, they can try to garnish your wages but that's about it. And after a certain number of years, you can't be held legally responsible for the debt. Which I suppose is why debt collectors get very antsy toward the end of that period.
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Abigail Reply:
March 4th, 2010 at 9:40 pm
Bill collectors don't move to put you in jail. If you earn a paycheck, they can try to garnish your wages but that's about it. And after a certain number of years, you can't be held legally responsible for the debt. Which I suppose is why debt collectors get very antsy toward the end of that period.
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I would send what I could, and Nadine should too. Chances are, the two year limit was a bluff anyway, to try to get her to say, "Oh no, not collections! Look, I found some money!". They would probably have tried to work with her anyway. (And if, "That other woman F'ed up my credit score" is a good enough excuse for her to just throw up her hands and quit, she's not spending enough time talking to PF bloggers!)
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Abigail Reply:
March 4th, 2010 at 9:44 pm
B.D.,
This was a process of years and years. They would get one matter cleared up and another would arise. I'm not sure how long, exactly, this whole drama played out. I get the impression of several years, where the woman would lay low for awhile and then start back up. However, I know that Tim's parents also just don't follow through on a lot of things. So chances are, she got the debts taken off but never got her credit fixed. So you're right about that last part, I suppose, about her not just throwing her hands up.
You could be right about a bluff, but from what Nadine said, the woman in the office was pretty sheepish about it. And even agreed that, given Nadine's situation, it could actually be better (financially, at least) to not pay anything. Which leads me to think no bluffing is going on. Or this woman was left out of the loop about it.
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Abigail Reply:
March 4th, 2010 at 9:44 pm
B.D.,
This was a process of years and years. They would get one matter cleared up and another would arise. I'm not sure how long, exactly, this whole drama played out. I get the impression of several years, where the woman would lay low for awhile and then start back up. However, I know that Tim's parents also just don't follow through on a lot of things. So chances are, she got the debts taken off but never got her credit fixed. So you're right about that last part, I suppose, about her not just throwing her hands up.
You could be right about a bluff, but from what Nadine said, the woman in the office was pretty sheepish about it. And even agreed that, given Nadine's situation, it could actually be better (financially, at least) to not pay anything. Which leads me to think no bluffing is going on. Or this woman was left out of the loop about it.
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I'd check out the laws in your state. In my state the hospital has to take whatever payment you give them and if you are making monthly payments, even if it's $5 they can not legally send you to collections no matter what they may tell you. Sounds to me like the hospital is bullying her. She needs to give them a small contribution each and every month and not worry about the 2 year timeline, I call BS on that.
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I agree with Nadine. All political beliefs aside, our system is extremely flawed and it upsets me to see someone go through this time and time again. The way I see it, she stands to gain nothing by paying this debt and it's appalling the hospital isn't willing to work with her further, especially since it's in their best interest to do so. If she isn't willing to give the hospital another call and try to work with another debt collector, I say forget about it.
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I think her reaction is troubling. Medical care is expensive but the hospital treated her in good faith i.e. didn't have her shoddy care because they thought she wouldn't pay and, as the above poster suggested, good faith on her part would equal paying some amount each month. It doesn't sound as if she thinks she was ripped off or overcharged or anything. (If so, she should individually protest those charges!).
2 years is a long time. Perhaps she could apply for other charitable assistance during that time, from the hospital or other sources. When all else fails, I've transferred debts that had a final due date onto low interest credit cards so I could have longer to pay off the debt.
But I couldn't in good faith walk away from any debt – although I may die trying to pay off my grad student loans! – so I'd prefer to work to keep the interest rate as low as possible, rather than have to pay penalties, etc that would likely accrue by the time bills go to collections.
I hope some other option works out for her. Possibly she is still in shock from the amount of the bills… Often I need time to recover and come up with more creative plans.
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Abigail Reply:
March 4th, 2010 at 9:48 pm
I agree with a lot of what you say. And let's not forget that medical care is expensive *because* a lot of people can't/don't pay their bills.
I know for a fact that she won't be able to qualify for any credit cards — her credit is so bad she can't even open a checking account. Only savings. It's very strange, really.
I'm not sure what other help the hospital will give her, as it's already cut out $11,200 from her bill. (Which, I should point out, it got grant money for but still…) I do think she should demand to talk to the supervisor. A lot of times the supervisor can at least explain your options or perhaps even bend the rules a bit.
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Abigail Reply:
March 4th, 2010 at 9:48 pm
I agree with a lot of what you say. And let's not forget that medical care is expensive *because* a lot of people can't/don't pay their bills.
I know for a fact that she won't be able to qualify for any credit cards — her credit is so bad she can't even open a checking account. Only savings. It's very strange, really.
I'm not sure what other help the hospital will give her, as it's already cut out $11,200 from her bill. (Which, I should point out, it got grant money for but still…) I do think she should demand to talk to the supervisor. A lot of times the supervisor can at least explain your options or perhaps even bend the rules a bit.
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P.S. Just think of the $ she'll save not smoking anymore…could she send in that amount each month?
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I was in ICU back on Oct 24-27 2008. I am a stay-at-home mom. My bills started rolling in and my Beloved tried to stay on top of them as they came in. One ER doctor charged $1000 for just walking into my room. I saw several just in the ER. In ICU, there were two! Surprise! They all wanted the money Right Now! Soon the actual hospital bills started pouring in. As I said, we tried to pay everyone who was demanding money.
The hospital wanted their money, over $30,000 immediately. We sent what we could. As I was diagnosed with type one diabetes with no insurance. Those handy dandy diabetic supplies are not cheap!
We tried to get help from the gov, no go as my Beloved "makes too much money." The we tried to set up a payment plan with the hospital. We figured this would work, as we were sending in a couple hundred each month. But No go!
Since they were so demanding, we stopped making payments all together. Since the first of 2009, we have had daily phone calls. They are "giving us a chance" to settle the account, before they take action. Also, a couple months ago a woman informed me that my insurance company has paid $7,000 and now it is my responsibility to pay the rest…in full asap!
So far the only thing they have received since that call is my answering machine.
All of the doctors and labs have been paid, so hopefully that will work in my favor if anything ever happens. Hopefully it will show that we did try, but they were greedy and lost!
Paula
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Abigail Reply:
March 4th, 2010 at 9:51 pm
Paula,
That must have been very hard!
I spent 19 days in ICU, then about two and a half months in an extended care facility. There were 3 doctors who checked up on me there during that time. ONE doctor's bill was $70,000.
That's not room, board, medicine or respiratory/occupational/physical therapy (and I had those almost every day). Luckily, my parents had amazing insurance, though I had to switch to my mom's after that because I had maxed out my dad's policy, which is a lifetime amount of $1,000,000.
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Abigail Reply:
March 4th, 2010 at 9:51 pm
Paula,
That must have been very hard!
I spent 19 days in ICU, then about two and a half months in an extended care facility. There were 3 doctors who checked up on me there during that time. ONE doctor's bill was $70,000.
That's not room, board, medicine or respiratory/occupational/physical therapy (and I had those almost every day). Luckily, my parents had amazing insurance, though I had to switch to my mom's after that because I had maxed out my dad's policy, which is a lifetime amount of $1,000,000.
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First, I think that I would go after the woman that is using my name.
That said, I would pay what I could and not worry about the collection agency. And if they really did turn me over to a collection agency, I think that I would call the local news paper and the local tv stations. I'm sure that the hospital wouldn't want that kind of bad publicity. Just a thought!
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Abigail Reply:
March 4th, 2010 at 9:54 pm
SonyaAnn,
I love the idea of going to the media! That would be quite a black eye for the hospital.
As for the woman with the same name… They went after her a few times to no avail. I'm not really sure of the details, but Tacoma police sometimes decide their own priorities. I know that they were able to discharge any debts incurred under the other lady. But I don't think Nadine fixed her credit. Or maybe, after a few times doing it, she got burned out. It's hard to get details from her, sometimes. Point is, she did try in the past. But it really should still be a priority.
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Abigail Reply:
March 4th, 2010 at 9:54 pm
SonyaAnn,
I love the idea of going to the media! That would be quite a black eye for the hospital.
As for the woman with the same name… They went after her a few times to no avail. I'm not really sure of the details, but Tacoma police sometimes decide their own priorities. I know that they were able to discharge any debts incurred under the other lady. But I don't think Nadine fixed her credit. Or maybe, after a few times doing it, she got burned out. It's hard to get details from her, sometimes. Point is, she did try in the past. But it really should still be a priority.
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I find it unlikely that they wouldn't care about what the 2009 tax return said.
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Abigail Reply:
March 4th, 2010 at 9:52 pm
Yeah I wonder about that, too. I wanted to encourage her to check that fact again. It just doesn't seem right. But I know she won't really take action about it, no matter how much I urge her. So I think I'll save my breath for something where I have a chance of influencing her.
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Abigail Reply:
March 4th, 2010 at 9:52 pm
Yeah I wonder about that, too. I wanted to encourage her to check that fact again. It just doesn't seem right. But I know she won't really take action about it, no matter how much I urge her. So I think I'll save my breath for something where I have a chance of influencing her.
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They may prefer she not pay any back because of some write off they can do. And check the laws. The media might prefer going after the lady that is using her name too. She should call her senator too.
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I thought that a hospital had to accept whatever a person had. She needs to ask the hospital to consider present income, not last year's income. Most places do that. If she does not try, she will get nothing accomplished. Maybe one of her children can accompany her to the hospital to insist for her. I went to the ER, thinking I was having a heart attack. I was never admitted to the hospital. I insisted on going home and returning the next morning for the test they wanted to perform. My bill was $13,000. The state wrote it all off–the whole shebang. I also had been employed at a better job the year before. She can also clear her name for a nice fresh start along with kicking the cigarette habit.
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