This is something I have to say frustratingly often to Tim.
There are times when he’ll mention not spending money “because we’re poor.” And I get annoyed. Because we’re not poor. We bring in a perfectly respectable $60,000 pre-tax.
Would I like it to be more? Of course. But we’re not scraping by in any sense of the word.
So why does this annoy me?
First, it pisses me off because there are plenty of people who are poor. People who can’t pay their mortgage and so lose their house. People who can’t even cover their rent. Or people whose income covers exactly enough to avoid eviction and starvation.
So when he uses the word so casually, it’s an insult to people who are truly struggling — as opposed to my just wanting us to eat out less often or otherwise watch our spending.
Second, it demeans my efforts.
I’ve worked my ass off over the last seven years to get us out of debt. Student loans, oral surgery and dentures, the move down here, etc. I estimate we’ve gotten rid of about $35,000 in debt.
So, him calling us poor means an utter lack of perspective on how far we’ve come and how much effort it took on my part to get us out of being poor (and to keep us out).
In a more recent argument/discussion (the sessions waver between the two), he clarified that, to him, being poor means not being able to have what you want when you want it.
It’s a thing, I think, from growing up. I think he was far more aware of his family’s finances than he should have been. At the very least, I don’t think he spent much time feeling like the family was secure money-wise.
And so when he was denied things, it was just a reminder that they weren’t safe. Hence, when I say no to something, it puts him right back into that uncertainty and worry.
But I remind him that we are financially okay — if not great — because I say no to things. Because I prioritize which things we should spend on.
Besides (as I also remind him) he has pretty severe ADD. If we did get what he wanted when he wanted it, then we’d be in financial trouble.
The fact is, we’re not poor.
True, we don’t put away as much money as we should. And that keeps me somewhat anxious about money, which probably doesn’t help his anxiety levels.
But we have a savings account. We have resources. Yes, we could be doing better, but there are a hell of a lot of people out there doing far, far worse.
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{ 13 comments… read them below or add one }
I hear you on this, I have one just like him! I ask him…what exactly don't we have? We have a home, 2 cars, a dirt bike, cells and laptops, etc…just because I find alternative means to afford things so we have a savings doesn't mean we're poor.
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Abigail Reply:
October 13th, 2012 at 10:36 am
Hmm that's a good point. I should just list all the things we DO have the next time this subject comes up. And, like you, I remind him that we still get things — it's just we find different ways to do it.
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Abigail Reply:
October 13th, 2012 at 10:36 am
Hmm that's a good point. I should just list all the things we DO have the next time this subject comes up. And, like you, I remind him that we still get things — it's just we find different ways to do it.
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Wow – I could have written those exact words! We live on one income and I make about $75k pre tax and my DH acts like we are so poor. I too, think it stems from his family situation growing up. He was denied a lot (parents of modest income, 5 kids to raise), so if he can't have something he wants, he thinks he is poor.
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Abigail Reply:
October 13th, 2012 at 10:41 am
Eesh, with a situation like that, I can imagine that having to say "no" just brings back all sorts of worry!
But with $75,000, yeah it's probably a little bit of an overreaction. I once read an article (on MSN, I think) that said studies show that the optimal point of financial happiness is about $75,000. That is, as families approach that amount, their financial happiness increases. But those above it don't have significantly higher levels. That might be one to show him if you can find it in a search.
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OneFamily Reply:
October 13th, 2012 at 3:15 pm
I think partly is been hard to actually "realize" the $75k because it's only been the last couple of years I've earned that much and many medical bills for DH have just eaten up the extra I earned, so it still feels like we are at what we were making a few years ago. Once we aren't supporting 2 kids, I think things will take a quick upward turn to actually feeling that "financial happiness" the income can bring. At least I hope he won't still feel so poor. He actually just said "I hate being poor" not an hour ago! It does get tiring to hear, especially, when like you, I work hard.
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Abigail Reply:
October 13th, 2012 at 3:32 pm
Yeah, I know the feeling. Our financial situation has vastly increased over the past two and a half to three years. But because of buying the house, dealing with the house and car repairs and then dealing with Tim's medical bills… We're just not nearly as far ahead as we should be at this income.
Oh, I found the article: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,…
Abigail Reply:
October 13th, 2012 at 3:32 pm
Yeah, I know the feeling. Our financial situation has vastly increased over the past two and a half to three years. But because of buying the house, dealing with the house and car repairs and then dealing with Tim's medical bills… We're just not nearly as far ahead as we should be at this income.
Oh, I found the article: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,…
OneFamily Reply:
October 13th, 2012 at 3:15 pm
I think partly is been hard to actually "realize" the $75k because it's only been the last couple of years I've earned that much and many medical bills for DH have just eaten up the extra I earned, so it still feels like we are at what we were making a few years ago. Once we aren't supporting 2 kids, I think things will take a quick upward turn to actually feeling that "financial happiness" the income can bring. At least I hope he won't still feel so poor. He actually just said "I hate being poor" not an hour ago! It does get tiring to hear, especially, when like you, I work hard.
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Abigail Reply:
October 13th, 2012 at 10:41 am
Eesh, with a situation like that, I can imagine that having to say "no" just brings back all sorts of worry!
But with $75,000, yeah it's probably a little bit of an overreaction. I once read an article (on MSN, I think) that said studies show that the optimal point of financial happiness is about $75,000. That is, as families approach that amount, their financial happiness increases. But those above it don't have significantly higher levels. That might be one to show him if you can find it in a search.
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Money works as a barometer to an individual's mental health. It is possible that because the ability to consume without delayed gratification has affected the perspective on what is considered "poor" or not.
I have family who live in a third world country who keeps me in check whenever I tip towards that unrealistic feeling of poverty.
Sounds like a visit to either a South American Country or another place would be in order to help grab a new perspective on things. Sometimes it helps to see a few tin-roof houses with mud floors to truly see what being "poor" looks like.
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Abigail Reply:
October 13th, 2012 at 10:44 am
Yep, I think that would keep anyone in check! Currently, I have other priorities for saving (inre: international trip) but it's definitely something to keep in mind. In the meantime, maybe I can find a good documentary on poverty — here or anywhere.
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Abigail Reply:
October 13th, 2012 at 10:44 am
Yep, I think that would keep anyone in check! Currently, I have other priorities for saving (inre: international trip) but it's definitely something to keep in mind. In the meantime, maybe I can find a good documentary on poverty — here or anywhere.
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maybe the two of you just have different definition of what being poor is? Its not a one size fits all term.
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Abigail Reply:
October 13th, 2012 at 10:58 am
Pamela: I think certainly there are a lot of definitions of poor. I paraphrased his above, which certainly isn't my own.
I just think calling a $60,000 income is a stretch to the point of distortion. Our mortgage, car payment, utilities (even at the worst point in the AZ summer) and TV/Internet/phone comes in under $1,700. Historically, a large chunk of the leftover has gone to paying off debt. But we're getting back to a decent baseline. Maybe when we have more savings he'll feel better. But I think it'll be a continuing issue as long as I say no to a lot of unnecessary spending.
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Abigail Reply:
October 13th, 2012 at 10:58 am
Pamela: I think certainly there are a lot of definitions of poor. I paraphrased his above, which certainly isn't my own.
I just think calling a $60,000 income is a stretch to the point of distortion. Our mortgage, car payment, utilities (even at the worst point in the AZ summer) and TV/Internet/phone comes in under $1,700. Historically, a large chunk of the leftover has gone to paying off debt. But we're getting back to a decent baseline. Maybe when we have more savings he'll feel better. But I think it'll be a continuing issue as long as I say no to a lot of unnecessary spending.
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I believe it was Eddie Fisher (can't remember where I read or heard this) who said, "I'm not poor, I'm broke." His philosophy: Broke was a temporary financial situation, poor is a state of mind.
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Abigail Reply:
October 13th, 2012 at 7:04 pm
Love it!
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Abigail Reply:
October 13th, 2012 at 7:04 pm
Love it!
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A lot of academics think like that. Most associate and full professors I know earn around 60 to 70 grand. But you know, they spent so much of their lives earning too little that the "we don't have enough to __(fill in the blank__)" mentality is a permanent cast of mine. Not rational, but understandable.
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Abigail Reply:
October 14th, 2012 at 9:55 am
Hmm, that's true. It may be that Tim is using this mechanism to keep himself from spending. But he also seems to believe and be downright melancholy about it sometimes. So maybe a little more of the former and a little less of the latter…
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Abigail Reply:
October 14th, 2012 at 9:55 am
Hmm, that's true. It may be that Tim is using this mechanism to keep himself from spending. But he also seems to believe and be downright melancholy about it sometimes. So maybe a little more of the former and a little less of the latter…
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I am like your husband – I've said I'm poor when we're not. I use it more as a safety mechanism, though. When I say it to myself, it's more a statement of "I'm not where I want to be financially yet, so I won't waste my money on ____." But you're right, calling ourselves poor when we're not isn't exactly fair to those who really live paycheck to paycheck. It decreases our empathy.
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This is the same fight Den and I had for years. Almost word for word! After 18 years, I have learned a few things-it gets better and they will eventually get it!
Den came from a very well off family. If there was a want, he got it-right then. And you can see where my problems started! I grew up across the street from a swamp, fun to play in but I never got things like he did. Mind you, I never went hungry and I had nice clothes. I was just ashamed of where I lived. My husband lived in the nicest houses in the best areas.
So having a savings account meant the world to me. But in order to get it, we had to go without. This was fine because I looked to tomorrow. Hubs only knew about the right now. It was many years of fighting and lots of tears but he gets it now. And the one thing that helped the most was to give him an allowance. As long as he had some scratch, he thought he was doing well. As long as I had a bit in savings I could sleep.
He even likes that we save for trips and is ok with putting Christmas money into the "funds" cuz he knows in the end he will benefit.
He even got me hooked on garage saling! He has come sooooo far.
You will make it just try to see it from his side and speak slowly!
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Abigail Reply:
October 14th, 2012 at 9:10 pm
SonyaAnn: You're right. We need to get our asses in gear with the allowance issue. It keeps falling by the wayside with the zillion things we deal with.
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Abigail Reply:
October 14th, 2012 at 9:10 pm
SonyaAnn: You're right. We need to get our asses in gear with the allowance issue. It keeps falling by the wayside with the zillion things we deal with.
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My husband and I laughed our heads off a few years ago when as part of a school assignment to list what you are thankful for, our son included "not being poor" on his list. There we were scraping by paycheck to paycheck, juggling the bills and the insufficent income, and we considered ourselves in trouble indeed. But our son didn't know a thing about our money problems, because we worked damn hard to make sure he would always feel secure. We never told him we couldn't afford to buy something; we would say instead that it was expensive and not worth the price. Now at age 12, he's careful about his own spending, but has still never felt poor, and shouldn't: he has always had food, clothes, a home, and far more things than the majority of people in the world ever see.
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Abigail Reply:
October 14th, 2012 at 9:12 pm
Jessie: If only more of us were as careful as you, kids would probably feel more secure. I worry that if/when we have a kid, the poor sucker will never feel safe. I think it's really, really important to make sure the child doesn't worry about losing everything. And it wouldn't hurt me to be a little less anxious (and a tad more proactive) about it all.
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Abigail Reply:
October 14th, 2012 at 9:12 pm
Jessie: If only more of us were as careful as you, kids would probably feel more secure. I worry that if/when we have a kid, the poor sucker will never feel safe. I think it's really, really important to make sure the child doesn't worry about losing everything. And it wouldn't hurt me to be a little less anxious (and a tad more proactive) about it all.
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I've been poor. Granted, it was when I was a little kid and the situation improved little throughout my childhood. I'm one of five kids and my dad was a volunteer in Mexico and my mom took care of use while still trying to work 40 hours a week but only made about $12,000/year at the time. Mind you, this was nearly 20 years ago but that doesn't make much of a difference when the heat would be turned off in the middle of winter and your family can't afford a phone. Before I got into college, I'd only been to the dentist twice. I've never felt secure until now and I still pick up overtime whenever I can just so I can pad my savings account in case of a medical emergency where my insurance doesn't cover something. My fiance on the other hand, has rarely had to do without but has never felt "poor". We were at one of the high-end stores at the mall and I was feeling sorry for myself saying, "I'm so poor. I can't afford anything here." He took me to task saying I wasn't poor. He also said I could afford nearly anything at the mall aside from some of the jewelry stores without going into any debt. I've gone from poor to broke to flush and I can say that it's definitely something that stays with you once you've been well under the poverty level….
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Abigail Reply:
October 22nd, 2012 at 1:49 pm
Allie: Sorry about the late reply. These comments got buried in my dashboard, apparently.
Thank you for your perspective. It's an interesting one. And, as others have pointed out, when we think we're poor (regardless of reality) it's an excellent deterrent to spending. I guess I get annoyed because in some others it can impede their lives by keeping them from getting things that are perfectly reasonable. Not a worry with Tim, to be sure. But my mom is only now really *getting* the idea that she can spend money on herself. We're not talking extravagant things, other than some travel — where she usually stays in hostels(!).
So I'd say your outlook is good, as long as you don't let it keep you from enjoying your life in major ways.
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Abigail Reply:
October 22nd, 2012 at 1:49 pm
Allie: Sorry about the late reply. These comments got buried in my dashboard, apparently.
Thank you for your perspective. It's an interesting one. And, as others have pointed out, when we think we're poor (regardless of reality) it's an excellent deterrent to spending. I guess I get annoyed because in some others it can impede their lives by keeping them from getting things that are perfectly reasonable. Not a worry with Tim, to be sure. But my mom is only now really *getting* the idea that she can spend money on herself. We're not talking extravagant things, other than some travel — where she usually stays in hostels(!).
So I'd say your outlook is good, as long as you don't let it keep you from enjoying your life in major ways.
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Maybe some reframing is in order. What is so wrong with being poor? If he is of the mindset that you are "poor" maybe that will cause a realization that money is important and you need to have priorities in how you spend it. I know many people who are definitely not poor (aka my FIL) but are so frugal about things that you would think so. Maybe that change in perspective will cause some forethought about purchases, or eating out, or vacations. Personally I would stop correcting him, because if he changes his thought then being told 'no' seems even more insulting.
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Abigail Reply:
October 22nd, 2012 at 1:45 pm
Wendy: Sorry it took so long to respond to this comment. It got buried in my dashboard.
I think you have a great point about letting his mindset go as long as it keeps him from spending.
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Abigail Reply:
October 22nd, 2012 at 1:45 pm
Wendy: Sorry it took so long to respond to this comment. It got buried in my dashboard.
I think you have a great point about letting his mindset go as long as it keeps him from spending.
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Why do you think Tim disrespects you?
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Abigail Reply:
October 21st, 2012 at 12:03 am
Financial Samurai: I don’t think he disrespects me. I think he’s just doesn’t fully understand/respect just how far we’ve come and how good we have it. He tends to focus too much on what we don’t and, sometimes, can’t have.
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Abigail Reply:
October 21st, 2012 at 12:03 am
Financial Samurai: I don’t think he disrespects me. I think he’s just doesn’t fully understand/respect just how far we’ve come and how good we have it. He tends to focus too much on what we don’t and, sometimes, can’t have.
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All through my childhood, mom would NOT shut up about how poor we were. She was born during the Great Depression and didn't become lower middle class until well into her 20's. I guess that's where her "poverty" mindset came from. Just wish she'd kept it to herself because I spent my childhood worrying about money, as well as other things. Also, I missed out on a lot of good experiences such as having friends over, being in band, going to the prom and taking the senior trip because of her fear of poverty.
I'll never forget the shock of opening her checkbook (with permission, of course) and seeing a balance of $3000. Mom was retired at the time, living on social security and a tiny pension, constantly trying to wheedle money out of an older brother. Any money she got from him for "expenses" went straight into savings. I inherited that money when she died. Talk about irony!
There's no way I could live with a man who let the words "We're too poor" cross his lips. My nerves couldn't take it. You're a better woman than I am. ;o)
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Abigail Reply:
October 22nd, 2012 at 1:53 pm
Catseye: I think I also just didn't have to deal with the nerve-rattling stuff you did! My mom made me very aware about money, to be sure. I didn't think we were nearly as comfortable as we were when I was growing up. Not upper middle class, but certainly staunchly in the center of it.
I keep telling my mom that, as far as I'm concerned, her great-grandchildren can inherit her money. You know, when she dies at age 180. I don't want to inherit money because she denied herself everything. (Besides which, she's already sustained me financially over the years.)
She is finally letting go of the bag lady syndrome, inasmuch as anyone ever does. So that's a start.
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Abigail Reply:
October 22nd, 2012 at 1:53 pm
Catseye: I think I also just didn't have to deal with the nerve-rattling stuff you did! My mom made me very aware about money, to be sure. I didn't think we were nearly as comfortable as we were when I was growing up. Not upper middle class, but certainly staunchly in the center of it.
I keep telling my mom that, as far as I'm concerned, her great-grandchildren can inherit her money. You know, when she dies at age 180. I don't want to inherit money because she denied herself everything. (Besides which, she's already sustained me financially over the years.)
She is finally letting go of the bag lady syndrome, inasmuch as anyone ever does. So that's a start.
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