Or whatever the technical term is.
A reader responded to They reeeeaaally don’t get it saying that we did not come off well in the post. Her view is that we put them in a demeaning situation:
” I get that they are needy people but the constant reminder that you are in charge and will only respond to their needs when it suits you is a very demeaning spot to be in.”
Here’s the thing: I get where she’s coming from. I don’t like that his parents are this dependent on us — most importantly, I don’t like all of the emotionally squishy results of that power imbalance.
But the fact is that they got themselves here mainly of their own actions. Or inaction.
When they had money, they spent it. Then they were screwed. Then illness came. At least then the hospital bills were mostly written off due to their financial straits.
They made poor choices. Illness did play a part, but not all that big of one. It’s true that Nadine could only work part-time, at first, and then not at all. But I’m pretty sure the extra money wouldn’t have made all that big a difference.
And, yes, I hear the resentment in my words. Whether it’s a fair reaction, well …that’s in the eye of the beholder.
Most of you seem to think it’s fair. Some of you don’t. I can see both sides. Arguably, we chose this situation. On the other hand, it was the best option we felt we had. The best of a set of bad options, anyway.
I’m sure it’s horribly uncomfortable for them to be so dependent on us. It’s uncomfortable for us, too.
Yes, we have all the power — but we don’t like having to be the authority all of the time. We don’t like having to always be the ones to police them just because they can’t police themselves.
When we didn’t put a limit on errands, they were running Tim around once or twice a day. It doesn’t sound like a lot but when, three days in a row, you have to go to the grocery store for ingredients? You get ticked at the lack of planning. They didn’t plan because they didn’t have to.
Similarly, Nadine didn’t make an effort to save some food stamp money from one month to the next. They spent it all. Why? Because more would come the next month. She also didn’t use coupons until they were off of food stamps. Why? Because she didn’t have to. Now she goes out armed with the suckers. Why? Because she has to.
They only do what they are actively propelled to do — by us or circumstance.
So we asked them to cut down on the errands. To make it fair, we pledged to do the same.
The errands did go down in frequency, but not in time. No matter how many times Tim expressed annoyance at the two-hour (or more) grocery store trips, nothing changed. He was going to start dropping them off and then having them call him to come back. Extra gas, but it would have saved his sanity, at least.
But then two things changed: priorities and presumption.
First, they announced they wanted to save for a bankruptcy lawyer. One of the reasons we were running them around was because there was an end in sight. Now that they were done paying us back, they would save for their own car. Sure, it’d take six months or more, but it would happen.
Instead, they wanted to do the bankruptcy thing first — despite the fact that she had had 6+ months to get it started while they were still in Washington (I sent her a book on DIY bankruptcy almost a year ago) and despite having non-garnishable income and credit that certainly wasn’t going to get any worse.
Bankruptcy lawyers cost $1,000-2,000. That’s at least four months of saving before they even STARTED saving for a car.
During a discussion about interpersonal issues they were having, Tim told his mom that we wanted them to prioritize a car over a lawyer. She changed the subject without addressing it.
The second thing was perhaps less of an overall offense but hit us hard. They asked us to run errands while we were sick and grieving. They didn’t even ask, so much as presume that we’d keep taking care of them when we most needed to take care of each other.
It wasn’t just the presumption (though that certainly pissed us off). It wasn’t just the stubbornness — we asked them to change pharmacies for one month and offered to pay the difference in price, but it didn’t happen.
In the end, the last straw was that Nadine never checked into alternative transportation. We mentioned Dial-A-Ride, and she had never heard of it. In the six months that they’ve been here, Nadine never checked into ways to get around Phoenix without us driving them.
Why? Because she didn’t have to.
And that, in the end, is why I feel justified in putting down boundaries and even imposing limits. I also feel sick when I do it. Tim and I were taught to help others regardless of the toll it takes on you. (Real healthy, that.)
But it IS taking a toll. And no matter what we do, they don’t seem to want to change. Why? Because up until now, they haven’t had to.
We will make sure they get to doctor’s appointments. We will make sure they can pick up their medication. They will need to arrange for other errands like the big girl and big boy that they are.
Why? Because we’re not their parents, and they’re not kids. And if we keep letting them act like dependent children, that’s all they’ll ever be.
Merinda says
*hugs* You have to take care of yourself too. You’re doing what you have to do, even if it makes you uncomfortable. I understand you can’t kick them out, but clearly they aren’t aren’t helping your state of mind.
seattlegirluw says
Merinda: Thanks for the support. And the hugs. I do agree with some of the readers that a lot of this comes down simply to us not setting clear enough boundaries. Which has caused us to have to set draconian boundaries. So that is something that we need to work on.
Heather says
Of course you aren't meany-heads – to the contrary, you've been extraordinarily generous to them – but I'm not sure it's "arguable" that you chose this situation: You absolutely chose this situation. You weren't blind going into it, and I recall people in the comments expressing concern about this arrangement for that reason. I also recall that you and Tim felt strongly that you didn't have any other options, but there obviously were other options, they just weren't palatable to you (and wouldn't have been palatable to some of your readers) for various personal reasons.
I feel sorry for the both of you that you're in this situation now (and I particularly feel sorry for you, Abby, because while it might not be the case, your posts suggest that you shoulder a disproportionate amount of your household's working and worrying), and I can't imagine how challenging it must be to try to maintain your sanity with everything you're dealing with, not just with your in-laws but with life in general.
Having to lay down the law with Tim's parents is going to suck, there's no escaping that. Hell, it would be uncomfortable even if they *were* genuinely eager to accept your advice and modify some of their more self-defeating behaviors, because no one wants to be in the position of telling their elders how to live. But you're going to have to be tough and consistent, even when it creates more work or headaches for you, or you'll end up just like them, letting others dictate the terms of your life while pretending you have no control over it.
seattlegirluw says
Heather: You're right. "Arguably" doesn't do it justice. The sentence was pared down from multiple paragraphs explaining why we felt it was our only choice. So it sounded a little more myopic on its own.
We did choose this option. There are frustrating things about it — not the least of which is that, when they did finally tell the mortgage company they were moving, the company offered them another year of non-payment. So the crisis wasn't quite as bad as we thought. That said, there were a few months where we had to loan them money because Nadine didn't have the funds for, say, her medications. Which were $5. So I guess maybe we did have to act when we did. It's complicated.
At times, I wish we'd left them up there and just sent them money. But then we never would have been able to save for ourselves toward a house. And we would have been faced with the same choices in a year. I go back and forth on the validity of our choice.
We didn't feel that we could let them dangle in the wind. And, given the state of the economy, maybe they would have fallen through the cracks of social services — even in Washington, which is pretty proactive.
In the end, I think we made the only choice we could live with in good conscience. Not the best idea financially — and we're paying for it now (literally) — but the same one I think we would make if given the choice again.
Guest says
No, you're not meanie-heads. It's a tough situation. Out of 5 pregnancies, I had 3 that ended in early miscarriages, so I know grief + hormone fluctuations make an already tough situation worse. Miscarriage is devastating in ways some folks don't fully "get". That said, reading about your in-laws sometimes feels like peeking into their bathroom window and seeing them naked. Readers might wonder if your in-laws know how much of their personal, finanacial information is out there (literally) for the world to read? Continued…
seattlegirluw says
There is always the struggle in deciding how much to include and what to leave out when talking about someone else. Believe it or not, I leave a lot of their financial situation out. There are some gory details — both about how they got into situation and how they act now — that I don't mention. I don't want to strip them naked, but I also feel that a lot of the detail I give is necessary to understand the reactions Tim and I have. And to get feedback from others in similar situations. I probably don't come out on the right side of that balance more than half the time, but I do try.
Guest says
There are a LOT of senior services and programs in the Pheonix area; many of them available to anyone over 55 and FREE. They include food programs, transportation, discounted utilities, energy-efficient rebate programs, emotional and financial counseling and more. I've noticed a few commentors have suggested them, but aren't responded to. It may be that-however unfair it seems (and is)-you and Tim will need to look into those programs for his folks. Ultimately, it will help all of you. In the meantime, allow yourselves to grieve your loss. Many thoughts and prayers are with you!
seattlegirluw says
Sorry if I've failed to respond to the specific suggestions. Utilities doesn't apply because the guest house isn't separate from the main house. I have looked into transportation and Dial-A-Ride/Reserve-A-Ride are so far the only options I've found. And we told Nadine about them. They are on food stamps. As for emotional counseling, Tim has asked his mom to go into therapy — we even offered to pay half. She maintains that she's not depressed. As for energy efficient rebate program… I want to get double paned windows but we're nowhere near financially able to afford those. The new A/C system we bought when we moved in didn't qualify (the one that did was more than we needed and cost several thousand more), etc. I have put in energy efficient bulbs everywhere. For now, that's about the best we can do.
Guest says
Maybe Tim could check with Lutheran Social Services of the Southwest's website, or SAIL (Senior Adult Independent Living), or www dot livestrong dot com, or any of the 16 senior centers in Phoenix proper for various free services and programs available to his folks. Getting food stamps doesn't disqualify them from a weekly or monthly food bank pick up. I guess what I'm trying to say is it might be a good time for you to hand off some of the worry about them? With 2 miscarriages in less than a year, don't you deserve a break?
Guest says
As an aside, passive behavior and helplessness are often signs of clinical depression. It would make sense that as dependant as they've become in a relatively short period of time (considering an overall life span), and with medical problems, Tim's folks could be depressed. No, that doesn't help either of you, but if they can get free counseling services, it could utimately help everyone in your extended household. Just a thought.
seattlegirluw says
Oh I wholeheartedly agree that they're depressed. Tim's dad would never consider counseling. Tim's mom maintains she's not depressed. Since she's been depressed before, she'd *know.* Sigh.
As for the "free" counseling, I've been unable to find even the barest hint of anything like that. Especially since she has insurance through Medicare. Still $35/session isn't out of the question. She just doesn't want to consider it. And we can't make her.
Petunia 100 says
Why do your inlaws feel they need to declare bankruptcy? Perhaps there is some misunderstanding in there someplace? A belief that bankruptcy will benefit them somehow? That could explain why they feel it should be their next priority.
I don't think you are "a big meany head". To the contrary, you (and Tim) have been extremely generous. I do think there has been miscommunication about what everyone should expect. I say this from experience, having opened my home to a relative in the not so distant past. I think a calm, no finger-pointing discussion about boundaries would make everyone feel better. I suspect your inlaws honestly do not understand why you are frustrated with them.
seattlegirluw says
Petunia,
I think you're absolutely right about the boundaries. To be fair, when Tim laid down the most recent boundaries with his mom, he mainly directed complaints to being about his dad. Even though almost every behavior he described was actually her, he knew she shuts down when he tries to point out things she does.
Unfortunately, even when we're explicit, there seems to be misunderstanding. For example, Tim has repeatedly asked his mom not to come up behind him (especially when he's got headphones on and can't hear her approach) and tousle his hair and kiss his head. Because he's not, you know, FIVE. But she won't stop doing it. And no matter how much we explain to her that he needs space, she will not give it. (Though we should be a little more specific, giving someone space does not, in any way, amount to sitting behind him and watching him and maybe even sighing until he acknowledges your presence.)
But we do need to be more explicit about boundaries — the (polite) whys and wherefores — and maybe things will clear up a bit.
And they do need to declare bankruptcy at some point, I think. But I guess technically you're right. They don't actually need to declare bankruptcy unless Marc's in danger of getting a job, which is unlikely. Or unless they need to get an auto loan, where bankruptcy won't exactly help them either.
So… I guess we have to sit down and have a very uncomfortable talk with his parents. The problem is, when they don't like what they hear they change the subject or just stop really listening. They nod, they pay lip service, but you can see in their eyes that they're closed for business.
Laura P says
Having in-laws living with us, I know what its like to not have privacy any more(16 years worth) why don't you start locking the slider/back door they come thru? That way they knock before coming in, and Tim's mom won't sneak up on him. I would find it annoying to be startled.
seattlegirluw says
Laura: Tim has taken to locking the sliding door. But he likes to sit out on the patio and watch videos. That's when his mom sneaks up on him.
Guest says
I too am currently having to deal with a difficult elderly relative who refuses to help himself and demands to be catered to like a child. I called a Center for the Aging here in my state and a wonderful counselor was able to counsel me over the phone. The most powerful thing she said to me was, "Have you ever noticed that the most helpless people are frequently the ones with all the power?".
Catseye says
No, Abby, you and Tim are not meany-heads! You've been a hell of a lot more generous and understanding than I would be.
Nadine insists on startling Tim, ruffling his hair and kissing him after he's asked her not to? Yuck! That's kind of creepy. Also, she's treating him like he's five because she wants to remind him that she's his mommy. Good boys don't tell their mommies "no".
Again, I'm so sorry you and Tim are going through all of this. I hope you find a workable solution soon.
bareheadedwoman says
reverse psychology> act like a child, treat like a child. "make them" do something that's good for them. Insist on a "date night" with the compound to yourself and sign them up for square dancing (they don't sound senior enough for senior daycare) or some such, drop them off and either order a taxi to bring them home or pick them up. Tell them it's the bus for them and no more trips to the store UNLESS they comply–non-negotiable. If they change the subject, point that out "you're changing the subject; we NEED you to do this–pull the guilt card: "we'll think you don't love us unless you do it"–and then yes, make them go.
you can't make them dance, and they may maintain that they're miserable. Never the less, next week, they will spend 2 hours being miserable for sake of love for you. Like a kid with piano…you can change instruments, but you MUST learn music (math, reading, whatever). perhaps they'll make friends, and their possibly low grade depression be lifted by being engaged. Find other interests and expand a world without you that will make you (and Tim!) much less interesting.
In any case, it works well against passive controlling behaviors, shows you do have a backbone AND their best interests at heart, is nothing they really can reasonably argue against (they'll try unreasonable, revert back to the guilt/love card), and is not hurtful to them in anyway…and at the very least, you get a night with the compound to yourself.
Practical Parsimony says
Is there a reason I cannot post? I had some ideas for you.
Practical Parsimony says
Tell them you made a mistake, that maybe they need to be in senior housing! That will get their attention. Point out the drain, the cruel and dismissive way she treats Tim, and say that you need your life back. Point out that they are the only ones who can change their behavior.
Practical Parsimony says
part two
YOU call and find out how they can get the free rides. YOU get all the information for everything. Counseling is free.
Put everything in writing.
Make obstacles, no matter how unsightly for her sneaking up. He can spend a week inside with the door locked watching videos to get her attention and make her see he means business.
I paid nothing for a bankruptcy attorney. Just call enough attorneys. The senior center here has an attorney that answers questions and prepares wills and such. There is also a free one that has an 800 number.
Do NOT expect them to do anything like calling and asking anything. Also, have them give you and Tim power of attorney. That will get their attention.
Have a separate line put up for their electricity. It will pay off in the end financially. You will be free of trying to convince them that they are using too much electricity.
You are not mean, but you went into this expecting the best.
Practical Parsimony says
By putting everything in writing–like "quit sneaking up on Tim and attacking him." Or, anything you have to say. They tune you out, so hand it to them. You may have to make a new copy every day. If they don't like it, tell them there will be rules even if they go into senior housing. Here, a third of the income is used or senior housing in one place and the other is on a sliding scale. And,it is not all senior, it is for people who do not have money to rent a place or have some disability.
It may be hard, but set consequences…not sure what. The free rides from senior or disabled will drop them off and pick them up. They are riding a good horse to death.
Practical Parsimony says
The electric meter for their little home will allow them to get utility help from LIHEAP and churches. Pay for it yourself and free yourself…lol. Really, they may not be able to afford to live with you. Senior/elderly/disabled housing may be cheaper. Oh, if they cannot afford that or fail to pay there, you and Tim can be appointed to handle their finances. Plus, being eligible for food stamps makes you automatically eligible for food banks.
Guest says
I agree 100% with Practical Parsimony's advice. I have a difficult elderly relative who is trying to guilt us into taking him in, supporting him, and waiting on him hand and foot. I have found some senior housing that he can afford and have taken him on a tour. He can take this opportunity for a place to live or he find his own solutions (did I mention that I'm in my fifth year of dialysis?). You and Tim have been incredibly generous. You are in no way being abusive to his parents. They are the ones who are putting themselves in the role of manipulative children instead of productive adults.
I say this next comment as gently as I can and with compassion for the pain that you and Tim are currently suffering due to your two miscarriages. My heart goes out to you and I hope that in the future you will be blessed with the joy of parenthood. But have you considered what life will be like with a child if you don't put boundaries on your in-laws and make them take responsibility for their lives? Are they going to be competing with your child for you time, attention, and financial resources? A multi-generational home can be a great blessing to a child but not if the grandparents are trying to usurp the child's place in the home.
Ro in San Diego says
I agree with the others that have posted here. You and your husband have been trying very hard to help his folks. You are right to take the steps you have taken.
You hit the nail on the head when you said they didn't make any changes because they didn't have to. I guess the statement that no good deed goes unpunished when it comes to your MIL and FIL.
Funny about Money says
Good lord.
Okay, kiddo. It sounds like you've got three choices here:
1) Tell them they have to go find their own place. There are plenty of Section 8 apartments in the Valley. Rent is based on capacity to pay, I believe. So they shouldn't have to pay much of anything.
Go here to find out about Section 8 housing subsidies: http://new.azhousing.gov/ShowPage.aspx?ID=188 If they're as broke as you say, they should be eligible.
2) Failing that, you and Tim rent a place for them. Or get them into Section 8 housing and pay the rent under the table. Rent the joint they're living in at your place to cover it.
3) If you can't bring yourself to move them someplace else, then listen to Practical Parsimony's advice! You say they don't do x, y, or z until they "have to." Well. Accelerate the "have to." Make EVERYTHING "have to." Don't drive them from pillar to post. Tell them they have to get themselves around, and hand them the schedule and info on Dial-a-Ride and old-age subsidization of taxis. I understand Dial-a-Ride no longer serves people just because they're too old to drive — you have to have a physical disability (such as being wheel-chair bound) that makes it impossible for you to drive — but for the elderly there is a subsidy of some sort for taxi rides. The just plain poor have to use the bus system, which in Arizona objectively does suck.
Along those lines, do not spend untold numbers of dollars attaching an electric meter to your outbuilding. Compare this year's bill with last year's bill and tell them they have to pay the difference! No pay, no stay: if they say they won't do it, invite them to leave. Or tell them you're having an electrician cut the power to the lean-to.
If the point of declaring bankruptcy is to get creditors to quit pestering them on the phone, it may well be that there's really very little point in declaring bankruptcy. The phone calls are the wages of sin — get them an answering machine and show them how to screen their calls. There are two resources where they may be able to get cheaper or even free legal help:
First, call Community Legal Services: 602-258-3434 . This nonprofit is Arizona's answer to Legal Aid, which was quashed by the Republicans here some time ago. CLS can offer your parents (and you — you should be paying attention, since this pair probably isn't going to share everything with you, because the available options might get them out of your hair) advice on how to get the bankruptcy done affordably. They probably can help with issues that go beyond the bankruptcy matter.
Also call the Maricopa County Bar Association: 602-257-4434. They may advise on finding a lawyer whose fees might not be so high — although frankly, I think $1,000 to $2,000 is pretty cheap for a bankruptcy filing.
Two very negative things are going on here:
First, you and Tim are emotionally on edge, and so everything is driving you crazy. Having the parents in your face is not helping things and can only work to make you crazier.
Second, these people appear to be taking advantage of you. The more you give to people like that, the more they're gonna take. The only way you can deal with that is to person-up and refuse to be taken advantage of. You'll have to accept the potential consequences, which may entail a long-term or permanent alienation. But given what you're going through now, is that really so bad?
Maybe you two could benefit from some counseling to help you through this time. Does your insurance cover therapy? If not, and if you don't mind driving a ways, up on Lincoln drive east of Tatum there's a place called the Casa de Bien y Paz. Psychologists volunteer there and dispense therapy at income-adjusted rates — it's extremely cheap. The Casa is a Franciscan retreat, but the psychologists are not necessarily RC and the conversations I've had with them have always been completely free of religious taint. http://www.thecasa.org/counseling
There may be some similar resource in the East Valley; if there is, the Casa people would know about it.