Okay, here’s the thing: That last post was initially longer, and I edited it to stay more on focus with the question. I shouldn’t have done that because it lost a lot of the context.
That’s not to say that your end judgment would have necessarily changed — you may still have chastised where I ultimately landed on the subject — but now that I’m going back to add said context… Well, hopefully this helps you understand why I felt I had to go to that extreme.
The full story, which I’ll get into below, boils down to one thing: Tim doesn’t do gray areas.
Frugal(ish)
I initially was okay, if not loving, the idea that Tim would order drinks at trivia. He wanted to use alcohol to alleviate some of his social anxiety, and I figured that was reasonable.
Unfortunately, Tim has a high tolerance, so one or two wouldn’t cut it. He’d order anywhere from three to five drinks, which meant that the bill generally came to $25+ after tip. My frugal sensibilities would’ve preferred to keep it under $25 — preferably a little closer to $10 to $15 — but it still wasn’t too bad.
But things quickly escalated. He started ordering food too, and the entrees were generally $12 to $14. He wanted full-fledged meals most of the time, so we couldn’t just split an appetizer. Besides, those weren’t a ton better at $8 to $9 a pop for less food.
At this point the bills were routinely hitting $35 to $40 a night after tip. The breaking point came one night when I was also hungry and ordered an entree. After tip, we paid $48 — and it was only that low because he’d had just two drinks.
As we were leaving, I told him that we’d need to scale back. Aaaaannnd that’s when the arguments began.
Trying to compromise
I asked him to choose between a meal and drinks. No. He said he was always hungry and it smelled great. Meanwhile, he also wanted a little liquid courage. (The social anxiety wasn’t easing, despite it being the same crowd most weeks.)
I suggested we get fast food on the way to trivia. If he were full, the smells wouldn’t be as enticing. He didn’t think that was true and refused to try.
We tried having him pre-funk at home so that he could just eat at the bar. But he made the mistake of just sipping the drink for about 45 minutes before we left. Consequently, the alcohol made almost no impact. He wouldn’t try again.
Okay, I said, could he at least keep it to one or two drinks? No, he wouldn’t promise that because that might not be enough for him to relax.
Fine, could he just keep it under $25 (since we’d also have to tip)? No, he didn’t want to “count pennies” when he was already self-conscious around these people.
From frugal to cheap
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how we ended up at soda and water. Since we couldn’t afford “all” and he refused anything in between, I was forced to go with “nothing.” He simply wouldn’t understand anything else.
I can see how that looks like a step too far. Perhaps it is, but I didn’t know what else to do short of no longer meeting up with the only friends I have in this state. Hopefully, you can see my dilemma a bit better, even if you still don’t agree with the outcome.
That said, I won’t pretend that I didn’t dream all along of a free trivia night. I didn’t think it should have to cost anything except maybe a soda to keep Tim’s dry mouth at bay.
But your arguments* have swayed me… to a point.
The restaurants don’t suffer
The “What if everyone stopped ordering?” argument still makes no sense to me. I look around the room and 90% (or more) of the 30 to 50 people in the room have ordered food and/or drinks. That’s quite a lot of sales for two hours on a weeknight, after dinner, during what would normally be a lull in business.
These folks are enjoying their orders. They certainly don’t look like they made a purchase out of a sense of obligation. And even if they did, they don’t know me and whether I’m ordering. So my lack of food isn’t going to somehow cause a cascade of food-abstention. At these places at least, enough people are always ordering because they’re hungry, the food smells too good to pass up or they could just really go for a beer right then.
Meanwhile, no business in its right mind would expect every single person to order, let alone rely on that for its profit margins.
But…
Due to a few other factors, Tim isn’t coming back to the group no matter what. This means that I can open up to spending a little bit. Still, I’m not necessarily going to buy something every time. Here’s why:
I don’t drink coffee, tea or soda. I hate beer and wine. And I’m definitely not going to drink hard alcohol and drive. (Even cider gives me a slight buzz for at least an hour, making me paranoid to have it at a two-hour event.) So if forced, I’d order a soda which I don’t particularly want and wouldn’t particularly enjoy. All for $6 to $8 after tip.
Nope, not doing that.
Yes, I could order food. And I might. But here’s the problem: Due to a weird eating schedule, I have dinner at 4 p.m. I’m usually just not hungry by trivia time. And no, I don’t want to put off dinner because that’d lead to at least two hours of hunger pangs — all for the privilege of breaking my diet. Just to support venues that, from the look of things, are doing just fine on trivia nights.
That said, sometimes my dinner doesn’t cut it, especially if the restaurant’s food smells particularly good. In those cases, I’ll order. Probably.
If…
I’m only going to order if the food is worth the price (or at least almost worth the price).
I’m not paying $13 for a chicken patty with pepper jack cheese and a smear of chipotle mayo. Nor will I spend $9 for a plate of half-assed nachos or three pretzel sticks and cheese. (All of those are actual examples of menu items at some of the bars/restaurants we attend.)
If I’m at least a little hungry, I’ll try to order something small like fries. Or if the restaurant decides to have some appetizers on special then I’ll get one of those.
But if I’m not hungry and the food is unappetizing/horrendously overpriced (for the quality received), I’m not going to feel bad about not ordering anything.** If the restaurant wants my business, it needs to make its food worthwhile and/or appealing. Which several of them do, so I don’t foresee a problem.
The servers are a different story
I didn’t realize that Arizona was one of the states that can pay tipped workers less than minimum wage. I still don’t believe that the places we go to pays the reduced amount.
But I could be wrong.
I also still firmly believe that the waitstaff does indeed ignore me once they realize I’m not ordering. The couple of times I’ve changed my mind about ordering, it was pretty difficult to flag the server down. I had become a blank spot, just as requested.
But I could be wrong.
Therefore, I will make sure from now on that I carry cash to these events so that I can always leave a tip even if I order nothing. Just in case I am taking up any of their brain space.
Fair enough?
*To everyone I didn’t respond to, please don’t be offended. I did read what you said. I did digest it. I’m just in a spot right now where I cry at the drop of a hat. (Seriously, I’m crying right now as I type this. That’s not on you at all. It’s just a fact.) Anyway, it was all I could do to read the dissenting voices. Trying to respond to them was too much.
**Incidentally, I told three people in my trivia group about the veritable poo-storm the last post generated. They seemed puzzled as to why I’d feel obligated to order something. So I guess at least I know the group wasn’t judging me all those times I ordered water.
nicoleandmaggie says
Seems like a reasonable compromise to me.
And yes, it sounds like Tim not going is the best solution on his end.
If forced to order something and the food isn’t great, what I end up doing in that situation is ordering overpriced fizzy water. It’s more expensive than soda but at least it isn’t bad for me.
nicoleandmaggie recently posted…I think we’re going to buy a new car: Any advice before we pull the trigger?
Abigail says
I don’t like carbonated stuff much, but it’s a good point that a bar might something besides soda/coffee/tea/beer, like juice or something.
nicoleandmaggie says
If they have fizzy water, they’ll also have flat Perrier, which is even more overpriced but is at least not unhealthy.
nicoleandmaggie recently posted…I think we’re going to buy a new car: Any advice before we pull the trigger?
Abigail says
Good point, some of these places may also just have plain ole bottled water for sale. I’ll have to keep my eye out on days when I’m just not hungry.
Catseye says
I’d tell you not to cry, but I know from vast experience that telling someone not to cry really doesn’t help. I hope you feel better very soon.
Also, please stop stressing over this non-issue. Ignore those people who disagreed with or criticized you. You do you and let them do their thing. Life’s too short.
Abigail says
I know, I know. But I’m always sensitive to outside opinion, and I *did* ask so I have to take it in. Only fair. Thanks for the sympathy/well-wishes.
Revanche @ A Gai Shan Life says
This context is helpful as to your mood but I sure wish that hearing dissension on that topic didn’t get to you. I’m positive that I dashed off my initial thoughts and didn’t put very much thought into the actual comment because I remembered a week later that I’d not ordered anything once at FinCon of all places and I felt bad for it at the time. I made up for it by getting dessert the next time I was sitting in the same hotel lobby restaurant. But like people typically don’t remember what you’re wearing on any given day, I don’t think they’re going to remember whether you order or not.
Revanche @ A Gai Shan Life recently posted…How do you deal with gift money?
Abigail says
Yeah, I wish it didn’t either, but such is the fun of a depressive brain (sometimes). I think we just need to tweak the medication a bit more if I’m this sensitive. So maybe the dissension was a good thing in a few ways: got me to rethink things and made me realize, nope, this isn’t the right med levels at all.
Revanche @ A Gai Shan Life says
That makes a lot of sense. The post that was the canary in the mind, perhaps? I also meant to apologize for not being more thoughtful but didn’t want to trigger a cycle of you feeling bad that I felt bad that you felt bad that …!!
Revanche @ A Gai Shan Life recently posted…Taking the 10-year perspective
Impossible Girl says
Could you have this group meet at someone’s house instead of a bar? Seems like the bar atmosphere not only conflicts with people watching their funds such as yourself but what if there are people in the group with severe food allergies or a recovering alcoholic? A bar setting might be uncomfortable for these types of people as well. It might not be the same trivia (I know those bar trivias are setup and run a certain way) but since it seems like this group of people enjoys this type of thing you could maybe have a game night or some such. That way you could make it a potluck and people could drink/not drink and eat what they want without pressure. Maybe make it a travelling thing where each week you do it at a different person’s house, a different theme, etc.
Impossible Girl says
I forgot to add, if Tim has social anxiety, maybe being at a house setting would be more comfortable, less people, less noise and pressure and, “oh hey, what a cute puppy you have, I’m just gonna hang out with him for a while, you guys play without me.” 🙂
Abigail says
Unfortunately, Tim consider the house kind of a safe haven. So the idea of having people in it is worse than going out. I’m hoping that will change as he gets out more at the dog park and has more time with lots of people.
Abigail says
Hmmm I think we enjoy the format (and a bit of competition) too much to nix the bar aspect completely. But we are trying to do some more social stuff, including some potential game nights at some folks’ houses.
teinegurl says
Whoa I missed a doozy of a post. Doesn’t Tim have fun money/mad money/ pocket cash that he can use however he wants and once its gone its gone? I know your both in the household but it seems like mentally if he spends his portion on money and wants to spend $40 toward trivia night he could and that way it’s less stress on you to think about?
When I’m at work I drink 1 cup of coffee I usually make at home but after 12pm I don’t drink anymore coffee. 2 cups if im super tired. After that I drink water at my desk all day with refillable water bottle and water fountain. sometimes I have green tea or something like that with lunch. I’m not a big soda drinker and I don’t allow the kids sodas at home. The one time I do allow it is if we go out to a restaurant or fast food they are allowed sodas with meals. Also I usually tell myself to get whatever I want (as long as im paying) because going out is a treat and I don’t like to restrict myself. I’m already out I might as well get what I want and not *pinch pennies* so I can agree with Tim about that.
But I will say your post as put into perspective how another person can feel in the situation. And since Tim will no longer go I think you can stick to your water and nothing to eat that you don’t want to. I think the purpose of the trivia night is have fun night out. The business has the right to either host or not host it they are making money and getting bodies through the door. In my book that’s a win win
Abigail says
Yeah, the fun money idea is certainly one way to attack the problem moving forward since it looks like he may rejoin after all. But the new outlook is that I’ll just decide on something we can split. Probably with the exception of that one place that has the heavenly sandwich. Waaaay too messy for Tim, but waaaay too good to pass up — at least not every time I go.
FrugalStrong says
I just read your last post and posted several comments agreeing with you. Go read them for some positive reinforcement!
Abigail says
Thanks, FS. I did read them and they’re much appreciated.
Marcia says
Oh Abby, I feel so bad I did not read the original post! Mark was in the hospital and came home Sunday. When Jim and I went to trivia nights he would get a soda and I would drink water. I left a 2 dollar tip and this is in Chicago. Please don’t feel bad, I honestly understand how you feel about this! Also, I manage the money of 5 people, so like you, I have to say we can afford this, but not that. It is so hard. Please know that I do get it!
Abigail says
Wow, please never apologize for not reading something of mine when your husband is in the hospital! I hope he’s feeling better!
I guess it’s harder to Tim to see the line because we’re *not* five people and on paper we make a lot of money. It’s just that we have so damn many expenses — some of which we could control better, admittedly — that it ends up feeling like we don’t make enough. But knowing how much we bring it, makes it hard for me to say (and Tim to really “get”) that we can’t afford such and such.
Thanks for your support!
Lizzy says
I was a waitress in college. Honestly, when I had a large group to wait on, it was a bit overwhelming. It was actually a relief if a couple of people just had water!!
It is hard in that situation. I am also trying to build myself some kind of social life in a new area, and everything seems to revolve around food…..bad for both my diet and my budget!!
Abigail says
Thanks, Lizzy, that’s nice to know! I always thought the servers were running around so crazed (the bars never staff properly for trivia, I guess just in case there’s a low turnout one week) that maybe someone ordering nothing would be, at the very least, fine.
Still, the new plan isn’t too bad. And if Tim does start coming regularly again — his current plan after reading this post — the plan is that I get to decide on something for us to split.
LIsa O says
I think you need to follow my new years motto…You Do You! If you go and have fun and just get water at a table of 8 but still tip the wait staff then your covered.
I am just wondering if you & Tim both have fun money that you both get every week? If you do then let him use his and you use yours for this night. I have been reading your post for several years and you are a hard working women with a lot on the ball. I think it is rude of Tim to expect you to find the money to allow him up to 5 drinks and eats if it is not in the budget. Sometimes people have to accept no as an answer or be open to changing somewhere else!
Drmaddog2020 says
Agree with every word of your second paragraph. I have long thought that Abby has so much on her shoulders, supporting not just her husband but giving his parents somewhere to live too. And after being paralyzed with guillan Barre. A lot of people don’t recover from that disease well.
Since this conflict, by your account, Abby is arising from Tim’s demands, let him stay home and enjoy the evening for just some you time. If wants to spend that much on an evening out, unilaterally, using his fun money is a great idea. Or maybe he can try to find something he CAN do to bring in some pocket money if he wants to do more.
Even with your limitations, past and current, you work overtime to take care of your household. I think you do enough, frankly. Best of luck and I’ll be reading.
Abigail says
Yeah, someone else suggested fun money, which is a good idea once we get it back. (We’re discussing nixing it until we have enough in savings to cover the back taxes I’m going to owe.) And yep, I’m doing me., which is why I refused to quit trivia even though that would have been the simplest way to end the argument. But instead I went and did the healthy boundary thing: I’m sorry you don’t want to go, I hope you change your mind, but regardless I’m still going. I know you meant it more in a “order (or don’t order) as you like” but I’m trying to do it in the full spirit of “You do you.”
Jenny says
I don’t know if this helps, but when I was a bartender, I never really cared if people didn’t order drinks. I just tried to give them a festive looking water (add fruit) in a drinks glass and made sure it was full when serving their companions whatever drinks they were ordering. I was too busy to worry about anything other than getting everyone what they wanted. And unless they were a regular I knew, I wouldn’t remember from one day to the next if they ordered a lobster dinner or a water. I usually tip a couple bucks if I’m drinking water at a bar (I’m a total lightweight) and thank the server.
Abigail says
It does help, thanks! (Frankly, with the servers being responsible for 1/3 to 1/2 of 30-50 people, I doubt they remember individuals very well either.) But I do think I need to start leaving some form of tip on the nights I get just water. Just for good karma!
Jackie says
Just wanted to comment on the social anxiety thing. Lots of people with SA do use alcohol to try to minimize the anxiety. But as someone who *recovered* from SA I highly recommend cognitive behavioral therapy. I don’t know if the Social Anxiety Institute is still in Phoenix but if so I recommend it 🙂
Abigail says
Never heard of it but I’ll definitely look into it now that I have. Thanks!
Susan says
I have that husband who can’t eat/drink frugal either. Your last post now makes a lot more sense. I can’t eat gluten so that type of restaurant would be a nightmare for me anyway. Some events just don’t work. I dropped out of a choir that I enjoyed until they passed the hat for donations 6 (I kid you not) times at one rehearsal. I was unemployed at the time. .. I do understand the dilemma.
Abigail says
Wow, six times? That’s *beyond* beyond the pale, even if you weren’t unemployed.
Glasgow says
Your husband sounds like a tiresome, whiny man-child. Between this and “I had to buy a video games console because my whiny adolescent husband needs something to occupy him,” I’m really grossed out.
Abigail says
Wow, okkaaaay. I’m not going to argue that he behaved anything other than poorly in this situation. And I refused to put up with him acting that way.
But as for the console… I think you vastly misread that situation. He wasn’t nagging me or whining for it. I decided it was a good investment entertainment-wise because there are simply too many hours in the day when you’re disabled. I used to read 3-4 books a week, watch hours of reruns during the day, new shows at night and still be bored spitless at least two to three hours a day. So I decided to get something that would help his hands and boredom simultaneously.
I guess, um, sorry his perceived behavior grosses you out? Luckily, you’re not married to him so…
Donna Freedman says
Don’t hold back. Let us know what you REALLY think.
Bless your heart.
Donna Freedman recently posted…Picking up money: My 2017 gleanings.
Cindy Brick says
I read this post first — then went back to read your previous post. That many comments for Post #1?? I thought you explained the problem much better in this one.
My first thought: thankfully you’re continuing to go to trivia. My guess is that Tim is hoping, by refusing to go himself, that you’ll give up and stop going. You need to do this — if only to keep yourself on an even keel, and as a reminder that there’s a whole big world out there!
My second thought was that your actions weren’t the struggle — that Tim’s were. And either you couldn’t — or felt you couldn’t — influence his choices. Tim’s aware of your income, right? And knows how much you could afford on nights out…but refuses to stay within that parameter. So he deliberately chose to do what HE wanted, no matter what.
His decision to no longer attend solves THAT problem. Although I’d be quite surprised if he’ll let your current situation remain as status quo. He would like very much, I’m guessing, to be in control of this…and you.
Food issues: there have been plenty of times I spent a long evening with friends drinking just coffee — because that was all I could afford. I’m sorry you don’t drink it. How about another friend’s drink of choice — hot water with lemon? The restaurants we’ve gone to don’t charge for that. And they refill it by request.
Another possibility: order one of the side dishes. (mashed potatoes, veggies, even a small order of fries.) Those are rarely expensive.
A third: talk to one of your friends, and split an appetizer. Or a basket of fries or battered mushrooms, whatever. If you’re going to trivia regularly, maybe they buy it this time, and you split it — then you buy it the next time.
I agree with you, though: water is your best option. And sticking with it on times you feel especially careful — or frugal — won’t hurt anybody, when the group you’re with is ordering stuff. There have been plenty of times I’ve met friends at Panera for coffee…and one of us doesn’t order a thing. Nobody complains about it. It’s bothering you a lot more than any of the help. If this continues to trouble you, leave a dollar tip — surely you can afford that!
One final thought: if Tim enjoys the dog park, would he be willing to talk to his group of friends about dogwalking their animals now and then? It would bring in a little extra income — help him feel more that he’s contributing to your shared life. (One of the things that I suspect is bothering him, too.)
Our daughter does this regularly; she talks about an app, similar to Lyft, that figures out where you are, then lets you know if there are dogwalking opportunities in the near area. There are usually some…and they pay quite well.
It is difficult to say this, especially from being married for 36+ years to a man who’s had one large and several small nervous breakdowns — but there comes a point when he is responsible for himself. In spite of your willingness to keep things going, especially to work hard and adapt to whatever situation — Tim is responsible for his actions and attitudes. You are responsible for yours. Don’t feel bad for trying your best, and feeling it’s not enough…the fact you’re still trying says a lot.
Prayer and concentrating on getting through each day, one at a time, rather than worrying about the whole — that helped me get through these rough times. You are a lucky woman in having a supportive mom who loves you, as well. You WILL get through this.
Abigail says
Tim definitely has some issues that he’s finally agreed to get serious about working on. One of the things I’ve been working on is drawing good boundaries, for my own needs and just generally between being supportive vs putting up with crap. It’s a delicate balance that I think married people tend to struggle with at one time or another.
Anyway, after this last post Tim has agreed to give the group a try again, and one of the agreements is that I’ll decide what’s getting ordered. So I foresee a lot of appetizers or, better, fries getting split between the two of us. It’ll be a good middle ground between spendy and cheap.
One of the reasons he likes the dog park is because he’s getting exposed to different dogs. The idea is to see whether he can conquer his allergy to pet dander, in which case he could start offering to train dogs. Walks are probably out simply because dogs often pull on their leashes, and Pandora doing that used to mess his back up pretty badly.
Bethany D. says
“One of the things I’ve been working on is drawing good boundaries, for my own needs and just generally between being supportive vs putting up with crap. It’s a delicate balance that I think married people tend to struggle with at one time or another.”
Very true. I know that occasionally I’ve wobbled too far into coddling my man. It can be tricky to find the right balance between Sensitivity and Suck It Up Already! 😉
Abigail says
Thanks, I appreciate it! And yes, the overall result of his refusing to go was my saying, \”I\’m sorry you feel that way. I hope you change your mind at some point. I still fully intend to go.\” He\’s actually going to give the group another shot now that I\’m willing to order *something* — with his concession (beyond trying the group again) being that I\’ll just be the one who decides what we order. So I\’ll have the power to stay on-budget while still going out.
Done by Forty says
Hey, you’re in AZ?! We’re in Tempe, and also happen to love trivia…and board games. We’re fun, I swear!
I think this firmly falls into the ‘you do you’ category. If you want seltzer or water at trivia, what’s the harm? Throw the waitress a buck or three if you want, sure.
And besides, what place that serves alcohol hasn’t learned to understand the value of a DD?
Abigail says
Yep, we’re in Phoenix though across the valley from you. But I did email you back so maybe we can figure out a way to meet up.
Donna Freedman says
And I’ll be in Phoenix at some point in February. Fair warning. 😉
Hey: I could be the DD and everyone *else* can tipple!
Donna Freedman recently posted…Random observations.
Kat says
I think what you’re talking about is a reasonable compromise and having the back story does help explain a lot. With the tipped wage thing… most people don’t really realize how pervasive it still is… and that’s because they’ve worked REALLY hard to make sure that it’s not really on people’s minds. There are only seven states that have eliminated the practice. Most states say that they’ve eliminated it by coming up with the “top up” compromise (where the company will make up the difference between the tipped wages and the actual minimum wage). The problem there, again, is that states that come up with that compromise don’t tend to have protections against being fired for needing to make use of said compromise.
One thing I will say about coming down hard is that it probably had another benefit- Tim’s social anxiety will probably actually do a lot better with less alcohol involved. When it comes to anxiety disorders, alcohol is actually pretty terrible at helping people cope. In the long run, it can even make the anxiety worse- especially if the person with anxiety increases their alcohol consumption. With more reasonable limits, he might actually find that he likes the experience a little more. I’ll keep my fingers crossed for both of you.
I know I come across as pretty strident when it comes to servers… and restaurant staff in general. It can be very frustrating to talk about all sides of the dining out experience because I can understand where everyone is coming from. That being said, I am always very quick to defend servers because I have seen people treat them like absolute garbage. The reduced wage for tipped workers has created a severe imbalance of power and there are people who exploit it in just… slimy ways. So, I tend to stick up for them and overtip.
Abigail says
I appreciate you letting me know how pervasive the tipped wage thing is. I guess I thought it was only in a few states. I actually do think alcohol lets Tim relax and talk a bit more. Then again, he sometimes wants to know after if he was TOO talkative/loud. So maybe it’s a double-edged sword. Here’s hoping it’s not too bad when he stops drinking at these things. He’s going to bring his DS just in case he starts feeling anxious (or if his ADD makes things to overwhelming) so he can disappear into that for a little bit. We’ll see how that does.
TENN says
Thanks for the follow-up post. The background helps a lot, though I understand why you left it out.
I think it is ok to not order something once in while when with a big group. Sometimes you order a lot, sometimes someone else does. I would leave a generous tip when not ordering a lot. I liked the option of ordering a side dish or two instead of an appetizer. Another option is to order something that could be heated up the next day. You could even wait until the end of the night to order and ask that it be boxed up before it gets to you.
Have fun at trivia!
Abigail says
The to-be-reheated idea is definitely interesting. I’ll keep it in mind for future menu perusal!
Practical Parsimony says
This explanation totally changes the way I feel about your decisions. If you don’t like soda, don’t order it. Just realize it is not ‘free’ as it does involve a minimum service by the waiter. I can see how he is sort of being petulant and hoping you will stay away or either let him destroy your plans for future. Keep going no matter what he does. Order water and tip $3. Eat or not, according to your budget. If he can understand he has to forgo something in life and not be petulant, he will be a happier person. I don’t believe in using alcohol to solve problems, social anxiety or not. I like the idea of buying something to go and eating it the next day. I would not have said all I did if I had known the actual story. Next time, maybe you could be a little more up front with the facts. However, I do understand why you put it the way you did.
Practical Parsimony recently posted…Monday To-Do List